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S1E21: The Power of Reconnection with Dr. Jody Carrington – A vulnerable look into women in business

In this heartfelt and transformative episode of “Let’s Break Up Toxic Workplaces,” co-hosts Gina and Nicola delve deep into the world of toxic workplaces and the power of reconnection with their special guest, Dr. Jody Carrington. Driven by her extensive experience as a renowned psychologist, Dr. Carrington brings a unique perspective to solving complex human-centered challenges.

As a speaker, author, Dr. Carrington’s expertise lies in fostering healthy relationships and productive teams through the crucial element of reconnection. With a passion for resilience, mental health, leadership, burnout, grief, and trauma, she unravels the root problems we face in the workplace and offers valuable insights.

In an unexpected turn, this episode takes a counselling session format as Gina opens up about her own experiences as a woman in business. Vulnerability becomes the driving force as Gina, like many others, shares the challenges she has faced and the impact they have had on her professional and personal life.

Dr. Carrington’s authentic, honest, and often hilarious approach to these issues shines through as she provides guidance, encouragement, and practical strategies for overcoming obstacles and rebuilding relationships. Her best-selling book, “Kids These Days,” is a testament to her message: we are wired to do the hard things, but we are not meant to face them alone.

Join Gina, Nicola, and their extraordinary guest, Dr. Jody Carrington, for a candid conversation that will empower you to break free from toxic workplace dynamics, embrace reconnection, and rediscover the strength that lies within us all.

Grab her book, Feeling Seen on Amazon here: https://amzn.to/3IVatJe this is an affiliate link and at no extra cost to you, we are able to earn a small commission from any sales.

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Oh yeah.Speaker 2: 53:32

All these different shirts. No, that was the other Brian. That was T-shirt Brian Oh.Speaker 1: 53:37

T-shirt Brian. Oh my God, yeah, brian with the insurgents was very funny.Speaker 2: 53:41

Yeah, um, we had the lady with four million jobs. Do you remember that one Mm? hmm, i know Where she had like what was it Like? 47.Speaker 1: 53:54

Like her first. Like her first line out of the box was like I’ve had 46 jobs in the past 30 years and we’re like what.Speaker 2: 54:05

We’ve got Amy, who talks to us about toxic positivity, which is pretty cool, and then we had Stu, who was our most recent recording, yeah, talking about leadership, which I’m pretty bloody excited about.Speaker 1: 54:20

And now so we’ll be doing some more interviews, but also sprinkling in some of the research episodes.Speaker 2: 54:25

Yeah, and then we’ll be doing some research episodes is going to like is our next kind of step right? That’s our evolution.Speaker 1: 54:33

And we’ll see what happens. We’ll see what you guys like more And if you have any comments, thoughts, reactions, just reach out to us.Speaker 2: 54:39

Yeah, We really appreciate everybody’s comments. Yeah, We’ve had. I just, I just get so excited when someone comments, So if you could comment like like subscribe, share follow all those good things. Come join us on LinkedIn. Come join us on.Speaker 3: 54:55

Instagram, yeah, yeah Find us a good place.Speaker 4: 54:57

We’d be happy to have you.Speaker 2: 54:59

And we’ll see you in season two. Couple weeks, yeah, yeah, a couple weeks. Thank you for joining us today. If you would like to share your story, we would love to hear from you.Speaker 1: 55:10

Also, leaving a review helps us create more content because it shows us there’s an interest in this topic.Speaker 2: 55:16

For those of our listeners who do better with reading, we have closed caption available on YouTube.Speaker 1: 55:20

See you next week, same time and same place.

Watch this Episode

Read the Episode

Gina  00:00

This podcast may contain adult themes.

Nicola  00:03

This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

Gina  00:06

The views and opinions in this podcast are expressly when I get to the workplace. I like to fuck shit up. Honestly, every time I try to do something fun or exciting, you make it not that way.

Nicola  00:20

Hey, are you tired of toxic workplaces and the negativity that comes with them,

Gina  00:25

we hear you and we’re here to shake things up. Welcome to Let’s break up toxic workplace stories, the podcast that’s all about breaking up with workplace toxicity.

Nicola  00:35

I’m Nicola and I’m here with my co host Gina. Together, we’re going to explore real life experiences of workplace toxicity and offer a sense of encouragement and unity.

Gina  00:45

That’s right, we’re tackling the tough topic of negativity in the workplace.

Nicola  00:50

So join us each week as we explore the various forms of toxicity in the workplace. We’ll be interviewing guests to share their experiences and offer practical solutions for dealing with workplace toxicity.

Gina  01:02

Let’s break up is quickly becoming the go to source for anyone looking to share and then ditch the drama and help you break up with those toxic workplaces. Thanks for tuning in. And don’t forget to like, subscribe and tell all your friends

Nicola  01:16

in this week’s episode. Okay, this is quite an interesting episode. When Jean and I originally recorded this episode, it was not the route that we originally thought we were going to go down. And I’m actually glad that we did. We originally got Jody on to talk about toxic workplaces, obviously, and essentially became a psychology session. And I think it highlights to everyone that it’s okay. When you are running a business and you’re a woman and you’re doing all of the things that it’s okay sometimes to not be okay. And I think that is specifically what this episode is about. So it is a very raw episode. I was hoping that Gina could join me for the introduction. But unfortunately, she’s driving up to New York at the minute. So we couldn’t record it. So you get my voice today, but know that I fully support her. And I appreciate the fact that she was vulnerable in the session. And she was really, you know, I think it’s I think, you know, we ended on such a great note on the fact that, you know, we can, we can become dysregulated so easily, and stuff just doesn’t work out sometimes. And it’s important for us to recognise that. And it’s important for us to be okay with that. So let’s get into this episode. It’s a little bit different again. So looking forward to hearing everybody’s comments. Please leave us a voice message. That would be so cool if you could, because we would love to hear what your thoughts were on the session. Right?

Gina  03:03

I am so sorry. Hi.

Nicola  03:07

Good morning. Oh, my God.

Jody  03:10

Oh, my God. Better than you. I’m ready. I’m ready. I thought it was 230. I was prepping. I’ve got my coffee. I was like I should put on lipstick. And then I was like 15 minutes late.

Nicola  03:27

It happens and it happens where you know what? We were just chatting anyway. So we’re good. We’re good. How are you?

Jody  03:35

I’m good. This is a replica of exactly how the things are going on this end. Yeah. 15 minutes late and $1 short. That’s really the fun. How are we doing?

Nicola  03:51

Look, we’re definitely having a day. We’re having a day as well. So I feel like we’re like it’s a fucking shit show is where we are at those points.

Jody  04:00

Such good company. Yeah,

Nicola  04:02

I feel like oh, do you drink Fiji water? How lovely.

Jody  04:06

That’s close to my day.

Nicola  04:09

That’s close enough to New Zealand. What? I can I cannot remember. Where are you calling us from?

Jody  04:14

I’m in Canada. So I’m in Alberta, Canada.

Nicola  04:17

Yes, that’s correct. Okay, nice. down in Florida.

Gina  04:22

Oh, amazing. Oh, fortunately,

Nicola  04:26

that’s the book tour going.

Jody  04:28

It’s going really well. We just got back from New York last week. And that stuff went really really well. And now we just have we have a bit of a break coming up. And then the last leg is in April. We do a couple of one in Winnipeg, one in Calgary. And then the official book tour is over. And then it’s always been it’s just all the contracted events which have been, you know, really getting out of control. So I’m trying to remember that I have three kids and trying to keep my marriage together. You know all the shit. Yes,

Nicola  04:58

please, we don’t Who needs marriages of those points? Which,

Gina  05:02

really? Nobody does? I’ve never I’ve never needed one.

Jody  05:08

Oh, my gosh, okay, let’s do. That’s all. Fine.

Nicola  05:16

All right, how? Okay, firstly, how are you? And you know, introduction, we would love to hear a little bit about your God. Tell us a little bit about you. And how you doing?

Jody  05:26

Oh my gosh, I love that question. Okay, so Well, I try to remember on the clearest days, the privilege it is to walk through this world in a time where I can stay connected to my kids and start a company and be surrounded by really brilliant women who want to have hard conversations. And so in the grand scheme of things, I’m remarkably privileged and I often talk about starting on third base, you know, that proverbial sense of like, it was pretty easy to get here to be here to stay here to do all those things. And so I feel like on the other side of things, I failing my kids daily, I think I should have went to business school as I start to, you know, start my own company, and I’m fucking it up left and right.

Gina  06:17

A conversation Nicola, and I just had I was literally just crying about what a fuckup I am. Right? Yeah. Like, like verbatim from you. And I’m like, I’m like,

Nicola  06:33

joined 15 minutes earlier about how awful Gina was and how awful Jordi

Jody  06:38

is feeling. So Gina, can I tell you a story? This happened yesterday, okay, less than 24 hours. I have written a best selling book called Kids these days. Okay, so it has became a national icon about how you should parent and teach and all those kinds of things. Okay? I was in a children’s store yesterday with my family frolicking, okay. And my 10 year old daughter, who is the spiciest little human I’ve ever met in my life is like, I am not getting that bathing suit, because you have a different style than me. And you know what, I really don’t appreciate your style mom. And I was like, Hey, listen to me. We don’t speak about things like that. Then she turned around and pushed her brother, who’s 12. And I was like, you we are not we do not push get your dad over here. So I sent him went to get his father. And he comes in and we are having a conversation about appropriate behaviour. She was like, You know what, if you guys don’t you guys hate me this much. Maybe you should put me up for adoption. And then I said to Aaron, I think it’s time that she goes to the truck club with the two of you go out and she says no, she’s running around the children’s store. Okay, now, I am a local child psychologist. I have written a best selling book. The mass majority of my fan base is shopping in this children’s store. There’s my husband’s facing. Running. Like this isn’t like a two year old mountain. This is a fucking debacle. Okay. And I am like, we got two options here. We can physically restrain the child and take her out kicking and screaming no doubt yelling things like, you know, you’re hurting me Dad, you know, things like this. And I thought to myself, This is great. This is this is super. This is exactly. Yeah. Which essentially, we’re, this is what happens daily.

Gina  08:36

Yeah, I’m just like, I’m just not. It’s been a rough couple weeks for this one right here. Right, Nicola.

Nicola  08:43

Oh, buddy. Oh, buddy. running your own business is not a fun time for anybody. All right, I’m circling all the way back to you. Okay, so you’re an author. And, you know, I know that we have spoken about, you know, toxic workplaces and how kind of you got into this process. So tell us a little bit more about that.

Jody  09:11

Okay. So I grew up in a small town in Alberta, Canada. And, you know, reflecting on now. We’ve been, I mean, that was, whatever, 25 years ago, I get a PhD. And I’ve written three best selling national best selling books. I have a private practice. And I have ran various sizes of teams in this process of trying to build this dream. I’m a psychologist and I really struggle with liking people. Like I want to throw up punch people on the daily basis because if if you didn’t need people to run and make great things, it would be amazing. So I have always been, you know, when I grew up in this small town, I can tell you the first and last name of every teacher I had, I can tell you my bus Drivers name was Stan comic, he was a crushed real son of a bitch. And he picked me up every day from grade three, dropped me home every night to grade 12. And I love this guy. You know, I can remember my favourite teacher, I know everything about her. I don’t remember anything she taught me, like the literacy or the numeracy. But I certainly remember the way that people made me feel. And I knew I wanted to be a psychologist for that reason that if I could be put in a position all the time to sort of make people allow people to get back to the best parts of themselves. Because I think that, you know, when I left that little town, I just wanted to do sort of adult motivational sports psychology stuff. And then I ended up becoming a civilian member with our national police force, the RCMP for two years, and I started to learn what trauma in organisations look like, and what happens when organisations don’t look after their people. We do a really shitty job of looking after the first responders and in North America, and we do a worse job of looking after the people who hold them. In fact, one of the International women in policing conferences is coming up in New Zealand, and some of the most remarkable police women I’ve ever met, serve in your country. And I. But you know, I started to think about trauma and vicarious trauma and how it messes us all up, because we spend the majority of our time at work. And whether that depletes you or fills you up really dictates how you show up for the people that really matter the most the ones you come home to Yeah. And so I decided this would be a great career to be able to be a police officer, and then tell police officers how to be better at their job. And then I tried to get into the RCMP. And then there was a hiring freeze. Thank you, Jesus. Because I mean, we don’t know each other, can you imagine me with a gun, it wouldn’t go well, and I also don’t take direction well, so

Nicola  11:37

I feel like I feel like you and the kids store and the gun would be like,

Jody  11:44

such a good time. And so then I ended up doing a residency in Nova Scotia, which is on the eastern part of in Canada, and I had to do a rotation with kids. And I started to realise that we know less about kids in trauma than adults and trauma. And I fell in love with trying to understand this process a little bit more. So I did a bit of a postdoc in child psychiatry, I came back to Alberta and I took, I worked for 10 years on a lock psychiatric inpatient unit for kids. So some of the most dysregulated babies on the planet, we put there to try to figure out where

Gina  12:13

you’re like still alive and not like a pile of like tears.

Jody  12:17

It’s the best thing ever? Because I’ll tell you why. When you change the question, I’m

Gina  12:21

a pile of tears right now, and I don’t do any of that.

Jody  12:26

I’ll tell you the answer. We often ask this about other people, what is wrong with you? Why are you acting like this? And when you switch the narrative very quickly to this, not what’s wrong with you, but what happened to you. It allows us as a leader, as a colleague, as a parent, to step into that relationship, so much more empathically. And when I stopped taking things personally, or taking on somebody else’s story as my own right, which is not the definition of empathy. Empathy is temporarily suspending judgement and stepping into the sight of somebody else, right? To try to understand Stephen Covey talks about this for years word from the Bible, Seek first to understand before being understood, it gives us the possibility to be able to navigate some of these things, right. And I spent my whole PhD being trained on this idea that behaviourism is the issue, right? That we got to alter people’s behaviour. And it is such a farce because those rules were created for a world that no longer exists. When we started establishing rules about how every major institution operates, we reward the good stuff and punish the bad stuff. What nobody asked No, is this question around? How do you feel about those doing the leading? How do you feel about those doing the walking and I’ll tell you, one of my favourite quotes of all time is by a dead guy named rom Das. He said this, we’re all just here walking each other home. And I have to keep it over my shoulder. Because I remember this all the time. As a psychologist, as you know, the founder of my company. We’re all just here walking each other home. And on my best days, that’s my job is to do the walk in in this position of privilege. And on other days, I need to be walked like you don’t even know. And it is this sort of collaboration between surrounding yourself with people who can do that for you. While you do it for other people. You get to land into Nikola, you get to land into the people you love to remind you that this is not supposed to be easy, Gina. You’re supposed to feel like you’re failing people. But here’s how I know you’re not. Do not underestimate your power. Because I think

Gina  14:37

my video person

Jody  14:42

No, you don’t. This is the part that becomes really critical. Is that particularly as women I’m going to keep talking to her like she’s listening. But the issue is women all the time right? Just we have this expectation that we should be able to fix things and keep things together and do all those things. And you know what, we get better at Little of acknowledgment. And when if you only knew how critical you were in the infrastructure of people stories and people’s lives, you know, we get the feedback all the time like Olivia, my Olivia, yesterday, 10 years old, I hate you. You’re the worst mom ever. Why don’t you just send me away? Okay. Their job is to lose their mind and to get emotionally dysregulated. Our job is to walk them home. Because you see the chaos is necessary to learn the calm. If everybody acted in line, emotionally regulated, calm, made good choices, use their words, follow direction, this will be a fucking scary place. Because the only way you learn that you matter is when you push the limits. Right? I want you to do that in my presence. And I am best able to handle that if I’m filled up, which is why we as business leaders, owners, parents, we’re the number one priority. Because if we’re not okay, the people we serve the people, we love the people we lead on Snapchat. Yeah.

Nicola  16:02

I totally agree with that. I think I think we’ve we’ve manufactured an environment where we’ve set such unrealistic expectations specifically for women, and especially women that are running businesses, a woman that are powerful, a woman that are supposed to be resilient, we’ve set this unrealistic expectation. And now you’ve got this, I want to say plethora of hyper independent woman that are just not taking any support, and they just keep going and they keep going until they burnout. And then plus, then we have like,

Jody  16:35

what we’re one generation out like, and I don’t know if you know this, I mean, if we look at your parents, or I’ll just give you my example. Right? So one generation out of being raised in a very traditional way, right? Like I’ve had a history of strong women, my grandparents are grandmothers in particular, but they had a very specific role. And even my mother in law, you know, she she’s one of the most remarkable women on the planet, but she was baking all the pies frolicking with the children, picking them up. I fucking hate cooking. I’m not even a fan of parenting. I mean, I love being a mom, but I’m not a huge fan of

Nicola  17:09

parenting these days. I’m like, just I’m fucking winging it at this point. Our party and there was one kid having a miserable time, I was like, Do you want to shoot the other kids in the deck with a Nerf gun. I’m like, This is how we parent.

Jody  17:27

But I love that’s what I love. And then we’re supposed to expect it to love motherhood, and then to be able to be in charge of our own companies and mother the people that we are bringing up and here’s the thing, I’m not a fan of mothering I like I love being a mom, I for went many relationships because I knew I wanted to be a mom, I wanted to get that. You know, I wanted to help my babies be able they could be. But I forgot about the part that the chaos is necessary that they’re supposed to be as Hillary ish, that there’s I want them to push back in my presence. Because that is where and this is similar as a leader, right? If you always comply and do the things, any relationship, marital relationships, and people tell me that they never fight, if I can scares me, right? Because that’s where we learn where the edges are. That’s where we learn and when we have access to the best parts of ourselves, right? When we are better with other people’s children. So if I came to you, Gina and I said, I’m really struggling with Livi I don’t know what to do with this kid. She’s so sassy. She’s telling me she doesn’t want this or she’s pushing back all the time. When it’s somebody else’s kid, you were so great. You’re like, okay, let’s talk to me about it. Right? Why she made and you know, if Nicholas hits me tomorrow, I really I can’t get my kid to practice. He’s gonna miss soccer practice. I can you come to your house after school? And I’d be like, yeah, oh my god, I would love to see him, come through my door, slams the door and says, Hey, what’s for supper around here? Now, because it’s Nicholas, baby. I would be like, What do you want? Honey? Did you have a good day? Is everything okay? I got lots of choices for supper. Now my personal child, the one that I shoved through my own very personal vagina, comes through the door and says, Hey, what’s reception around here? It’s excuse? Is that how you talk to me? Back it up and don’t slam the door? We talked about this, you have a respect for property? Why

Nicola  19:26

are you in my house? Are you actually in my house?

Jody  19:30

Listen, all three of us have the potential to be the most remarkable human beings. What happens is we don’t lose our ability we lose access to it. So the question is, how do we gain access to the best parts of ourselves? Okay, let me give an example of emotional regulation. Okay. This is the thing that we all want to get back to is emotional regulation is how not to lose your friggin mind. Okay, so biggest skill any parent has, how not to lose your friggin mind. When your buttons are pushed so significantly, this is also the best the best skill that a leader I have okay, how not to lose your friggin mind. emotional regulation is only taught in the presence of other people who can show you how to do it not tell you. Okay? Never in the history of telling somebody to calm down. has calmed down ever work. Okay? My God. My house. All men

Gina  20:18

do that you’re like freaking out and they’re like just calm down and you’re like freaking out even more. You’re like, I know I can do it to calm down.

Jody  20:25

Exactly. Yeah, right. I mean, the last time somebody told us that we were in love with said, Oh, just relax. Jodi, did I go?

Gina  20:34

Oh my god, they’re so relax. Yeah.

Jody  20:37

Right. And so here’s the interesting thing when you bring a baby home from the hospital, how they let you know what they need as they lose their freakin minds, right? They cry. And the big people walk them home inherently we go, huh. There’s a rhythmic exchange that occurs from big people to little person that is universal. Regardless of age, race, religion, socioeconomic status, or gender identity. There’s a rhythmic exchange that occurs from a soldier in Russia, somebody in Afghanistan, somebody in Australia, or Coquitlam BC, if I put a crying infant in anybody’s arms, they would engage in a rhythmic exchange in an effort to walk them home. Because the first sound every single one of us felt on this planet is what about the heartbeats of our mamas, you see, and whether she’s alive, or you have a relationship with her or not, your ability to co regulate with another is in your bones, in everything you need in this moment, Gina, we I feel like this is the best therapy session I’ve ever done. And she didn’t even know she needed.

Gina  21:46

Therapy all the time. I just don’t want to be on YouTube for

Nicola  21:52

No, I’m gonna cut you out. It’s fine.

Gina  21:58

So much therapy, my whole fucking life. 43 years of therapy, like, and I’m still a fucking hot mess.

Jody  22:04

Oh, you’re not a hot mess, Mama, you’re crushing it, this is this is part of it, right? We have multiple generations to undo. And we also have a brand new script that nobody’s ever given us one. So we should be disasters,

Gina  22:19

I have, I have to mute because I’m gonna blow my nose, it’s gonna be

Jody  22:25

so much for your service. Thank you so much.

Nicola  22:28

So I think thing.

Jody  22:31

But you know, with this issue around emotional regulation is that if we have people who can walk us through the hard stuff, we start to learn how to regulate our emotions on our own. If we don’t, then we come into our relationships and our teams and our children with only fight flight and freeze on board. Right. And our job is we can’t give away something you’ve never received. Right? You can’t, you can’t give away something you’ve never received. And oftentimes it is the corrective experiences that we have along the way we meet good friends, we meet good colleagues, we end up in healthy relationships, that sort of understand we get a good therapist, we start to get walks through the big emotions and reminded that indeed, dropping our shoulders, taking the breath, wiggling the toes, getting back to the best parts of ourselves, we’ve always been there, we just have lost a lot of access to it. Because the narrative in our head is we’re a fucking hot mess. We’re never gonna get this right. I’ve been in therapy for four to two years, look at me, I’m still a disaster. How about the fact that you are single handedly creating this podcast that’s changing the world, that you have your own company, that you have babies who are desperate to push back against their mama, because they just really want to know where the limits are, and they finally have somebody in their life that can set those limits. Isn’t that a fucking reality?

Gina  23:52

Like, good luck,

Nicola  23:54

good luck, well, approaching the precinct.

Jody  23:58

But I think that’s the interesting thing, right? Is that particularly as women, and then if we think about when we’re in places in our work space, if we’re emotionally dysregulated, they’re the question of our colleagues, our employees, they’re supposed to push the limits, they’re supposed to question. They’re supposed to do all of those things. And when we understand that, that is our job, sometimes, although it’s exhausting and overwhelming. It makes it so much easier, much more palatable to set into, right, okay. Okay. Okay, tell me more. Here’s the three questions that I often ask when I want to get somebody else regulated, and I’m about to lose my mind, okay. And I know this because I start to want to fix it. Oftentimes, when our people are most distressed, they don’t need a fix. They need somebody to simply acknowledge them. So here’s the three things that allow me to acknowledge either my kids or my colleagues, same fucking thing. And my husband also tell me more. Now, when I say to somebody that I love who is emotionally dysregulated Tell me more. I 99% of the time don’t want to know more. I am doing this to get you to a state of emotional regulation. Because when you’re acknowledged, you rise, when you are seen and heard, you have the ability to regulate emotion. So I want to make sure that I’m going to use that space before I start to fix it. I really want to understand where you’re coming from. I might not condone it, I really want to be with my friend’s mom. I might not support it. But I want to understand it. Tell me more. Right? Well, I just like feel like you don’t understand as a leader, like you asked me to do all these things. And I like I don’t have the resources to do it. No way. Tell me. What’s the hardest part? Right? What’s the hardest part? That’s another question, right? Well, I don’t know. Like, the hardest part is I feel like sometimes I’m failing Eugene. Like, I feel like I don’t have enough stuff in place to be able to like, make sure that you know how much I value this job or you and I feel like I disappoint you all the time. Okay, so now we’re unpacking it a little bit, right? What’s the hardest part? Tell me more? As a leader, I asked this question all the time. I fucking hate this question. What am I missing?

Gina  26:08

What am I sound a little condescending? What am I missing?

Jody  26:11

No. But how you tone isn’t as important. Right? Yeah. So I will tell you this happened in my team. A month ago, when we’re starting the book tour. I was like, Okay, everybody sit down. I got it. I’ve now written this best selling book. I think it’s gonna go amazing. I feel like we need to do this eight city tour. I know, we’ve already sold out four cities. But here’s what I needed to do. I needed to get on the road. Like, can you imagine if we went to New York, we did these things. And like, the whole team was like this. And I was like, You’re right. They are. They’re spellbound by my brilliance. And so then I was like dictating and telling and all these kinds of things. And I was like, clearly, they’re amazing. At the end of the meeting, my executive director who has been us, we’ve been together for eight years. She’s amazing. She says to me, you’re kind of you know, you scared me a little bit today. And I was like, You’re right. You’re welcome. Because that’s what happens when this brilliance sets off. Now, I went home that night, and I was like, I wonder if you really meant that. So the next day, I pulled them all back together. And I said, Tell me what I’m missing. What am I missing here? And then they fucking told me for two hours. They were like, God, eight cities. In two months, we have kids, how do you think we can do that? How do you think you’re gonna do this? We don’t have the infrastructure. We don’t have the support. And what about like this and this and this and this? And I was like, what? You guys we’ve been planning this for two months. Why didn’t anybody fucking tell me this? And you know what they said to me? You didn’t ask? Oh, still, but we often if you’re the ideas person, if you’re the director of things, if your passion if this is your baby, right? I will power over everybody. Nope. This is how it has to go. How about what happened? And listen, there are take charge moments as a parent, as a leader. Sometimes I don’t have time for the fucking minutia. Okay, I have to make decisions. But I will tell you, there’s so much more effective when people feel seen in that process. Right? They didn’t feel safe enough to ask You scared us. We were going to do whatever the fuck you said in those moments, because look how excited you were like, I’m sure you were look how whatever that was, when I didn’t have a question. I was scared to tell you. I didn’t want to poke holes in the plan.

Nicola  28:18

So you know, here’s here’s a question with regards to that, right? Like when you’re looking at toxic workplaces Is this what bean seeds into that kind of negative feedback loop? So you’ve got let’s say, someone who’s a visionary or really excited that the ideas person and then you’ve got the minions could be any sort of could be a C suite minion, just minion of any description. And you’ve got these people kind of hop chewing, because they are too nervous to kind of push against because they’re just not being seen and heard.

Jody  28:53

And this happens more significantly, the data is clear on this on marginalised people, women, white women do this to women of colour exponentially greater because we hide behind the, the sort of the experience of misogyny. So we’re like, we finally get a seat at the table, I’m going to step on this and at the expense of, of finally getting a voice here, okay? And, and what’s so critically important about this process, right is number one relationship knows no hierarchy. When you truly work in an organisation that understands the importance of valuing people’s contributions, regardless of where you are on the theoretical hierarchy, you start to get the best from your people. And if you have somebody who sort of can lead the way around that and can recognise the importance of not only like coming to somebody who is, you know, on the hierarchy, you know, who sort of the menial level of things versus like the executive director of things, understanding that our abilities to lean into each other more so let’s acknowledge each other you know, I can, as an you know, an EA an assistant I can come in to the CEOs office or so and an email and say like, I just need to tell you that Today’s meeting was amazing. I’ve worked in your HR department for the last three years. And I just want to tell you, thank you for being here, means the world simply equally as if the CEO goes into, you know, stops by the, I don’t know, the office structure and says, Hey, I just guys, I’ve, I was making some cookies last night for the team at home. And I just thought, like, I just wanted to say thanks, I know that these days aren’t easy, because we’re also overwhelmed. When you are acknowledged, you rise, and we put so much effort into how we serve people, our clients, our employees, your number one priority is you second only to your team, the people you serve, for the next Genet for the rest of our careers, I wouldn’t say are irrelevant, but they’re pretty close. Because if we’re not okay, the client will suffer if we’re not okay, this the services we provide will not be the best they can be. And we often jump the team, the connection to each other. We don’t have to say this. Regardless of the organisation or industry you’re in. What happens when a high quality meat tray shows up at a staff room? Right now it’s not just cheap shit, but like there’s like hummus and grapes and some


coutries you know, I am

Gina  31:17

RYLA like charcuterie board, I have it

Nicola  31:21

or subscribed like a sign me you will see me like I’m sure you’ve seen the meme with the little hippo running through the

Jody  31:29

Oh my god. Dammit, we let people at attended, because and then the question is, you know why? Well, when you’re acknowledged you rise. So if you wanted to buy one more computer programme forego that saved before handy, and put it into a couple of computers boards for the next couple of months and watch what happens to your one of my favourite hockey coaches. And I know hockey is a big deal up here in Canada, but one of my favourite hockey coaches said this, you should see how fast I can get a kid to skate when I know the name of his dog. Oh, hmm. Curious. Curious, I love that this is not brilliance. This is something we’ve known to be true all along, when you are seen, which means, you know, feeling seen as the title of my new book. And the issue is, it is how do you truly acknowledge another, not just look but to see, not just to, to listen, but to hear. We are so disconnected in this world. In fact, in the history of the free world, we’d never been this disconnected than we are right now. Technological advances have allowed us to not be in the same physical space as so many people.

Gina  32:37

And my brain is still stuck on the hockey coach with the dog. So my brain is a little slow today. It’s not normally this slow. So that’s how I learned how to snowboard. Because the yes, the instructor was like, mind you, I was like in my 20s when I first learned how to snowboard because of lots of stupid reasons. But like I couldn’t get it, I couldn’t get it. And, you know, snowboarding it’s about like leaning into the edge, but not so far that you’re gonna like, tip over like faceplant. And so this guy was older. He was like Old Man River. He was the instructor and I was like I’m on the fucking bunny slope with Old Man River. Like I’m such a loser. My hot boyfriend is doing like the black man, the black whatever the black diamonds. I’m literally down here with like rental gear. I look like a complete idiot. I’m with four year olds. But my boyfriend at the time he was real nice. He paid for a single like one on one lesson. So I had gotten several work from other people. He still talks to me this day. His name is Ronnie do Monday. I mean the name The name speaks for itself. That’s all we need to know. So I couldn’t get it. I couldn’t get it. And then this old fucking fossil who had no business being on the snow, the mountain. I swear to God, right. He was like, every time you lean in pretend you’re petting your dog, Baba. Guess who got it? Just like that. Huh?

Jody  34:13

He acknowledged you he he knew you.

Gina  34:15

And he was like by late Ronnie do Monday sucks dick break up with him. But then, like, a couple of months later, I did break up with them. But anyway, yes. Sorry, I

Jody  34:25

digress. I’m now you can snowboard. I can’t

Gina  34:29

I don’t really do it very often. But I can if push comes to shove, but how did he know that? And this is out in Utah.

Jody  34:38

I mean, how do you know how to connect to people? When you are at your job that I do,

Gina  34:44

I think I suck sometimes is that

Nicola  34:47

you’re just saying that because you’ve got a bit of impostor syndrome at the minute I just

Gina  34:51

I’m just not gonna do my best.

Nicola  34:55

But you know what you do connect with people we connected you could reached out to me and you did really good job of pitting stick with me. That’s true.

Jody  35:03

Yeah, you have a DNA, you just lose access to it sometimes. And I think that’s the point, right? We, we all do. But when I’m not at my best, right, when I’ve spent a lot of time doubting myself, and listen, this is part of the game. If you want to grow self doubt better be part of it, because I don’t want you to think you’re fucking great all the time. You need to be taken down a notch. Humility is the biggest fucking teacher. And when I sit in those places of like, Okay, fuck, I got some things to learn here. Then I get back to this idea of, okay, look at what I can do. Look at how far I’ve come look at what I’ve built. Look at my skill set. And when I have access to it, right. There’s nothing I can do. There’s nothing that will stop me. Right. And that’s the issue not about whether we need to build more skills. It’s mostly about how do we get back to what we know. And when you think about emotional dysregulation, and kids, you know, if you look at your own children, and they’re using their words and being kind and showing you all the skills that they learned, right, they can speak their second language, they can be very fantastic. When they get emotionally dysregulated. They scare us, right? They’ve lived their lives, okay. So for example, you’re having a nice chat around a brunch and your babies are there, your mother in law’s there, everything’s great. And they’re using their words and their manners, and they’re doing all kinds of things. You’re like, Oh, they’re so sweet. And then your four year old says, Mommy, can I have a ring pop for breakfast? And you’re like, baby girl, we do not have suckers for breakfast, you know that. And she buck in snaps, flip certainly loses her mind. She gets under the table. She takes her clothes off. And then she hisses like you’re like, hey, Warren, and she hisses at you like a cat. And you’re like, Holy fuck, she’s gone feral. Right? She got the ADHD, what’s wrong with her? Right? Has that baby lost her ability to use her manners be kind and speak in another language. She’s lost access to it. And my job is to walk her back home so that she can get access to it again. And the more I do that, she can then do that by herself when I’m not there. Because the job of emotional regulation is we’re born with it. The only way the chaos is necessary to learn the calm. And when you’re a good leader, and you’re filled up. When people get really distressed with you. You’re fucking shitty, I hate you. This is brutal. You don’t even know what kind of company you’re running. You know, all those questions come in, then that becomes really debilitating. I can start to believe it. If I’m not if I’m not looking after me. Yeah. And when I can drop my shoulders and take a deep breath and be like, Okay, tell me more. What do I need to learn? What am I missing? And there then comes a time where I get to decide whether you’re right for me, right? But I’m gonna make that decision when I’m regulated. Because, I mean, here’s the thing that has surprised me the most as an entrepreneur, the friends that I’ve lost. Today, I cannot believe you know, this is a very special breed of being able to be a woman start a company and go all in, I will work 24 hours a day, seven days a week, I’m not working to retire. I am working to create a legacy for my children. I am working to change the world. And I hope I never want to leave this. I’m not counting you know, those. Sometimes people have those like retirement calendar, countdown things on their phone, and they’re like, only 677 More 1000 days. And then I get to for what if you don’t feel like you’re making a difference every single day, right? Do I want to be able to dictate what that looks like? Do I want to take my kids around the world? Do I want my husband and I to be able to golf six months out of the year? Yep. Yep, you bet. That’s what I would love to do. But in this programming,

Nicola  38:38

it’s the same time.

Jody  38:41

I love it. And I think I’m fucking brilliant. I’m gonna write a New York Times bestseller. That’s the plan. I’m going to be known by my first name only like pink and Oprah and Shonda, that’s my goal. You

Gina  38:53

know, you might need to have like a stage name.

Jody  38:56

No, no, Jolie. I think that’s just powerful. Dr. Jody is fine. But how we get to gene is not okay. Well,

Gina  39:06

Gina. Dr. Gina I just get out.

Nicola  39:10

Dinah just to That’s right.

Gina  39:12

Dr. Dinah.

Jody  39:13

I feel like that’s much more memorable.

Gina  39:16

Well, yes. Because then everyone’s gonna think of a vagina. Mm hmm. Well, and we do what we have to do.

Jody  39:21

You know me? Yeah, no,

Nicola  39:24

good, bad PR. The PR.

Gina  39:28

Nicola. You guys didn’t like my joke the other time when I said Dr. Panella. If you’re nasty, so how about Dr. Diana if you’re nasty?

Nicola  39:39


Jody  39:42

I think we’re getting closer to viral. You know, that’s

Nicola  39:46

what she said.

Jody  39:52

Oh my gosh, that’s a hard game. But I think that’s the point. It’s a hard game. And it’s not for everybody. And I think if we if we knew that if it was easy every But he’d be doing it and they’re not.

Nicola  40:01

Nor that Well, I think that’s the thing, right is not everybody’s doing it, and those that are doing it, I don’t know, how much of kind of the struggle bass that they’re actually talking about. And I think, you know, I, you know, I know we originally discussed going down like a toxic workplace direction, but I think realistically what we’ve done is we’ve actually created our own toxic workplace for, you know, women that are running their own businesses. And we’ve created our own little toxic bubble within ourselves, because you’ve got these, you know, single, powerful woman, essentially, negative self talking themselves in this narrative that just doesn’t serve them doesn’t serve their employees. And now you’ve like, essentially, it’s your own little toxic workplace within your head.

Jody  40:54

You know, on International Women’s Day, I gave a couple of talks to a couple of different organisations. And there’s this quote by Kavita rom Das, who talks about feminism, as you know, not an entity sort of fighting any single oppressor or even coloniser, it is oftentimes how we have to rewrite the narrative with other women, about the way that we show up, you know, so many people on this, you know, the expectation of in this one generation, we can still do it all, we can still pick up the kids bake the cookies, keep the house clean, and run a $5 million organisation, right. It’s impossible. It’s impossible, right? We’re not that good. And so the question then becomes, interestingly, I think the most negative feedback I would get ever is about like, Oh, you were away from your kids for two weeks on this book. That must have been really difficult. Hey, how did your husband handle it?

Nicola  41:46

He’s appearance fine,

Jody  41:48

he he is really amazing. And he like an ordered out a lot. But soda. Why? Because I fucking hate to cook. So things are going to like the expectation of all of those things. We’ve got to rewrite that script. And people aren’t being as hilarious. Because I think necessarily they are they are we’re really questioning that narrative. Can we do this? Is this the role of women? What Why do women need a seat at a senior leadership table? Now I will tell you, right now, it’s going to be life changing, life saving to have a women to have women on boards, to run organisations. Because what we need right now is an emotional language highest rate of suicide. In North America is middle aged men. And what we need is an emotional language when we’re running any kind of organisation to be able to allow people to feel seen and heard and when they feel seen and heard burnout drops dramatically appreciating your staff 12 or more times a year drops turnover.

Gina  42:42

That’s so funny because I had set remember I say this all the time, Nicola, I had such a big fucking problem, that the C, EO were where I worked directly under her never once said, Thank you, to me, not once. And I don’t know why I’m not someone who wants accolades, but it just really rubbed me the wrong way. Oh, it just like she barely acknowledged my my presence.

Jody  43:10

We need women to lead like women, not right women who token Lee lead like men, I want you to be in touch with your ability to be kind and emotional and connected, and to have snacks and to be able to say, Gina, right scooter, but

Gina  43:26

that American business really wants that authentic self. Like they they want it, but they don’t want it.

Jody  43:35

So then look at the rates of burnout. Right? Then look at the rates of suicide, we are now stepping into a mental health crisis, they better fucking figure it out. And the more successful businesses when you understand this, when you can orchestrate as an entrepreneur, a company or a group of people that understand this, you will be wildly successful. Because we’re stepping into a place very quickly, where you can’t tokenize people into being great anymore. I’m going to give you a bonus, I’m going to, you know behaviorally modify you that only worked for so long I need You need to be acknowledged. And this working from home bullshit is needs to be absolutely addressed. Because you can only do so much in isolation for so long. Now is hybrid environments work? Yes. But if you have a very uplifting connected team, what that does to you in a workplace environment. If you come into a workplace where you’ve seen and heard and there’s joy, you go home a remarkably better human than if I were to say to you, you need to work in your basement and do all those things. I’m not gonna turn my camera on because I don’t want people to see me because this is a privacy violation. You know, this is bullshit anyway, so I don’t even know what everybody else is doing. That’s the quickest way to kill innovation and creativity.

Nicola  44:43

Oh, for sure. For sure. And I think Gina had that on her team at our toxic where she would have these team meetings because you know, globally remote, right, and she would have these team meetings and I don’t even please, I’m sure there’s like two people there that you wouldn’t even know what they look like. Like,

Gina  45:00

I wouldn’t if I pass by them. I wouldn’t know. I would not even know because they like never put their their

Jody  45:07

why I want to work hard for you. Why do I want to work hard for you? If you don’t even have the audacity to turn your camera on and say, hey, oh my gosh, you guys, I’m working in my office today you might see my kid come in and out and but I’m, here’s what I’m so jacked about is this project. Do you know you were talking about this the other day on the meeting and Nikola? Okay, so tell me if I’m losing my mind, but I feel like this would be amazing. What do you guys think about that? So the ability to make eye contact is one of the most powerful things in the planet. And even if it’s through camera, I will take it because it changes the neuro chemistry, the oxytocin, the dopamine increases. Now, if we could be in the same place doing this podcast.

Nicola  45:47

fun would that be? Oh, my God, we’re all going to

Jody  45:51

get done. But technological advances allows us to do this. There’s Listen, technology isn’t the problem. It’s how we use it. That is the issue. Yeah. And the less competent we feel, the more we tend to isolate ourselves from other people. Right? If I’m confident, it’s usually it’s a circular issue, then I’m spending more time with people. I’m having more of those important conversations. I’m stressing out what did you mean by that? I’ve been thinking about that a lot more like did you do really think I fucked that up? Oh, God, sorry. I’m so glad you asked me that. Because you know, when we were in that meeting, I got that note. Did you remember what this happened? And I was worried about this until I made this comment, and I didn’t get to follow up with you. Right? We have that ability to unpack so much more of that when cameras are on or we’re in the same room. You just can’t replicate that on a text or an email. You can’t you and

Nicola  46:37

you can’t and the tonality as well. I feel like, you know, I think when you are reading someone’s facial expressions, and I know that Gina, you had this quite a bit, right is when you’re reading someone’s facial expressions, you can see the tonality that’s coming with those facial expressions versus an email where it’s super flat and it just feels condescending, because it’s like, well, you just kind of flew fingerless because you’re stroking Yeah.

Gina  47:03

And there was always like, you know, like, if I were to be like, Oh my God, this, so and so is like, getting on my last nerve today. If I said that in like a slack. You’d be like, What a bitch. But like if I said it in real life, and I was like, oh my god, I love her. But she’s getting on my last nerve, like, huge difference, like huge difference. So like, I was vilified for, like, instant messaging and emailing in the exact same way I talk. Because there was no human connection. So I was billed as being too assertive, rude. But like, all these things, you know, so

Jody  47:42

the things you’re not? And I think I can

Gina  47:45

be but but not to the point where they were taking it. Yeah.

Jody  47:52

So and then that ability then to want to give your best self to a team like that

Gina  47:55

you I stopped. I was like, fuck this shit. I was like, I just feel stuck. You guys,

Jody  48:01

can I tell you, that’s why I wrote this. Like, that’s truly why I wrote this. Because it is so many people out there just wanting to contribute and feel seen in any particular organisation. And that is life saving when we can do that for people. And when we understand that everybody wants that, and are better because of that, my gosh, how do we do? That is the question. And then the third thing is what happens when we lose our way? What happens when we fall off? What happens when we feel like pieces of shit again, we need a roadmap back. Not just this is how you do it. Okay, everybody’s great. We’re all back in the game. Nobody’s happy? Nobody’s happy all the time. Who the fuck happy? I mean, we want this for our

Gina  48:42

children. Finally, we came from a company that’s happy all the time. All the time.

Nicola  48:47

Every moment of the day. Don’t you tell us that you’re sad?

Jody  48:52

Yeah, so bad. Because like there’s no bad emotions,

Nicola  48:56

right? No, there was no bad emotions. You couldn’t be you couldn’t feel what you could state feedback. But it had to be positive feedback.

Gina  49:06

No, God saying like, there’s no negative emotions. There’s no emotion. That’s bad. All emotions are good. Yeah. Oh, it’s not the positivity. Sorry. So sorry. That any emotion you bring to the table as your authentic self is good. Yeah, I agree with that.

Jody  49:28

Because here’s the issue anxiety and depression will not kill you. They’re just emotions. They don’t have the ability to be like that. But not talking about a mic. Yeah. And if there’s no place to put it somewhere, you know, we’re so scared all the time of people being disappointed or critical. And part of that question is how do we invite that tell me more? What’s the hardest part? What am I missing anymore? If

Nicola  49:49

I’m feeling anxious about how I second my life, don’t tell me more. Don’t tell me anymore. Just stop talking to me.

Jody  49:55

But that’s how we feed anxiety. Right? And my kids say this to me all the time. You know? Evan came in. He’s 10. And he came into the room on Friday night. And he’s like, Mom, I’m so anxious right now I can’t even sleep. And I said, Honey, tell me what you’re anxious. But he’s like, I can’t I don’t want to say it out loud. And I said, That’s how anxiety wins, is if you can’t tell me what you’re anxious about, he’s like, Mom, I’m scared about dying. And he said, I can’t even believe I said, this word, dying. And I was like, there you go. Let’s say it’s just a word. Hey, all of us get to that point one time, I said, What are you scared about dying? What if I live by my What if I don’t see anybody? What if I never see you again? Ah, let’s talk about that. Right? There’s so many people that have talked about this. When you name it, you tame it. And I love that. Because so much of the time, words and emotions have so much power because we keep them in isolation. But if we have a team, an organisation, a relationship, where their safety to be able to sort of navigate into some of those scary things, than we all really understand, I just I had a session today with somebody. So I still have a practice here. And we talked about, you

Nicola  51:03

know, you’re doing like all the things. Are you just like, are you just the hypocrite of the day where you’re like, I’m doing all these things.

Jody  51:10

I’m also a fucking disaster that so I mean, I don’t know about this. But I think what’s interesting about this process is, you know, he was just talking about some of the worst things like what if I, as a police officer, what if I hurt people? What if I like the worst thing in the world is, you know, he said, in the first interaction with his child whose baby, he’s like, he had started having thoughts like, what if I’m a child molester? And that is such a common reaction. When you are a common anxiety around people who have to care for children or become parents for the first time, they often are thinking the worst. That’s what anxiety does is it makes you navigate all these things. And like, Who the hell were you supposed to check that with anybody? Hi, I’m a child psychologist wondering if I’m travelling, Lester. Now, the question about that is you have to name it to tame it. Let’s explore that. And if it’s causing you significant distress, oftentimes, there’s an anxiety component to that, that we’ve got to talk about, right? Let’s think, what is the evidence? What do we need to do? Let’s explore that. But you understand our anxieties work on the most vulnerable parts of us. And sometimes it keeps us quiet. Because we don’t want to talk about it. We don’t want to tell anybody and this happens in business all the time, right? We don’t want to assume that we’re not doing this well, or that everybody else kind of seems to have their shit together. And one of the things that I think is most debilitating this process is the comparison of social media. We have readily available access to look at how everybody else is fucking killing

Gina  52:36

my my brain is like mush right now. Because this is just like so much information. And

Nicola  52:42

like, it’s all like I feel like people right person and to you

Gina  52:49

know, I mean, it’s just like really random time you know, but it’s like we have anxiety thoughts. We have social media. I’m like, Oh my God. Like like ping pong like like a tent with one of those tennis ball machines is like malfunctioning and like hitting me in the face. Oh my god. I have to get off social media. Oh, yeah, I have to value myself like oh, like I’m still stuck on the thing about the cops and he he’s a paedophile like oh, just like it’s just also good. But I’m just like, my brain is like having a hard time catching up to where we actually we I am still stuck on the cop thinking he’s a paedophile. Can we revisit that? Where’d that come from? I’m still stuck on something else.

Jody  53:41

Our biggest worries in this life often come when we worried that we are not good people that we are that we have. And we have done bad things that we have the potential to be horrific humans. And oftentimes, we stay stuck in our thoughts around that. And our ability to sort of say those things wonder out loud, is the scariest thing on the planet. But here’s the thing, I’ll tell you this, again, emotions will not kill you not talking about a might. Because then you start to get stuck in its place. Right? There’s this, this particular person and I can tell you, you know, as a patient of mine is one of the finest human beings on the planet. Right? Has done remarkable things in their lifetime. And when you hear the inner workings of people, this is such a privilege for me as a psychologist, when you hear the stories that people carry about themselves, the worries that they have about themselves, there’s no way is this true for this particular human,

Gina  54:37

right? No, but like, where did those weird thoughts come from? See Never mind something different?

Jody  54:42

No, no, you’re not. This is the same line, right? Where did they come from? It’s because oftentimes, we end up stuck in our own heads. And the narratives that we have about you know, the stories that we keep in our bones as children, you know, the expectations that our parents have had of us, our interactions with our state blings curiosity, you know what we’re supposed to do and supposed to be and supposed to think how we identify any of those things have been so scripted. And we’re in one generation of really questioning some of those things. But we often wonder, are we the worst parts of those things? And when you don’t have anywhere to put it, oh, my goodness at from the inside out. Either this episode is going to be the best you’ve ever done. Or people are going to shut this off after two seconds and be like, Okay, what the ship just on there as a trio of women. But here’s the thing that I think about is I think there’s so much about our stories that we never had permission to sort of explore or talk about for fear of retribution. And I noticed this in my children, I have so much more hope for the next generation than I ever have before. Because the questions and the conversations that we have around the dinner table would not have been even remotely safe.

Gina  55:55

Anyway, we totally digress. But yeah, I think you’re right. I think people are either gonna be like, What are these three weird bitches talking about or? This is hot shit, but

Nicola  56:05

I’m putting my money on the fact that I think it’s hot shit. And I’ll tell you why. Because we’re talking about something that no one else is fucking talking about. Because we’ve got three women here, all of which are powerhouses like let’s just call us what we are. We’re fucking powerhouses. And we don’t talk about the shit show that is going on in the background. And we’re not talking about the shit show up top.

Gina  56:31

Well, you guys get to see the shit show. I was crying like a like I was crying like a breastfeeding baby.

Jody  56:37

You regressed to five it was beautiful. We watched you and look at you now grow up. You shed your sweater. Yeah, like back in the day. You like your your back? Well, I

Gina  56:48

make cars myself down. Regulated God I regulated.

Jody  56:53

Look at this. Like if anybody could watch the video of this podcast has been amazing, because in real doubt, you will see. Absolutely more. Yeah, no, I think this is actually where this is gold. Actually, I couldn’t have orchestrated this any better. I agree.

Gina  57:12

Because like you literally Jodi, you’re annoying because you just started talking and you were like talking about everything that I was just talking about Nicola. And I was like, Oh my God, what the fuck? Why is my life so weird? And then that’s why I started crying. You’re annoying. Everything to

Jody  57:27

make me feel seen. Okay. You bet. Things that don’t make sense to me.

Gina  57:33

No. But I mean, like, ever, like in my head telling, like speaking the words, I just spoke to Nicola. Like, what the fuck is going on? This is annoying.

Jody  57:45

I know. I got it. I got it. And I think it’s because you know what, here’s the thing, Gene, I think it’s such a universal experience, and not to minimise at all, what it’s like to be in your place in this moment. But I think what we don’t recognise as women is that we are all there so much, and maybe even just not even as women but as humans, right? We’re stuck in this place of am I Enough? Why don’t people understand this? Why? Why do people think I’m like this, when? Why are they questioning my character? Because in my own head, my intentions are always so much better than they fucking appear to be. And why would you judge me like that? And so I think we often feel like that so much. And when we start to articulate it, right, it is that ability. You know, here’s the interesting thing. A kid said this to me one time and Alexa Can’t you can be impatient and that she said, Don’t you know that mad is just sad bodyguard.

Gina  58:37

And we’re all these kids coming from? I feel like you’re lying to us, because they have all these great sayings. Your

Jody  58:44

kids are the most brilliant. She was she was locked up. And it was interesting because I struggled with it. She hid and kicked in bed and she ran and I like, tackled her on the fucking freeway and came back in and she was just like, you know, we had her in a secure room. And I was sitting there with her and I was like, Oh, my, what am I missing? And she just said to me, and she didn’t say a lot, because I’ve missed most of the assessments. Like I didn’t get it right with her. She said, Don’t you know that? That is sads bodyguard. And I was like, what? And that’s what she would say to me. And she probably learned it in therapy at some time. But I later on reflecting on her her story. I was like, That’s right. I’ve never met a man that wasn’t sad. Because it is so much easier to be mad. You know what fuck you. Versus that cut me to the core. Yeah, right. And I think that that’s part of our job. Sometimes if you can be a really good leader, if you can turn somebody’s mad to sad then you’re getting somewhere. And it’s how do we do that? It again, the simple word. If we were to take this to one to one place, it is acknowledgement. If I were to say to Gina, here’s what I love about what you brought to this company, right? I love this work ethic. I love this part. This project. You fucking crushed it. All right. Help me understand why on Slack channels, there’s so much disconnect with our team. What am I missing here? And you could be like, well, you would tell me this. I hate slack. I do like

Gina  1:00:14

I actually do in real life. Now, right? But

Jody  1:00:17

if I were to ask you that as a leader, and I’d be like, Okay, this is not working for our team, right? I can’t have a woman from the Bronx, trying to communicate, because you are so direct and clear, and it comes off like, you’re not a team player. And I don’t think that’s who you are.

Gina  1:00:31

I think you I am I know that can you get out of my head? You dumb bitch con.

Jody  1:00:38

This is I want to say to you, I know how much passion you have for this team. I want this team to know it too. I want everybody to see how much you care. So slack for this project for this community done. Here’s how we’re going to communicate with each other. We’re all going to come together, I need everybody in the office so that we can meet face to face. We’re going to have such a coterie and we’re going to talk a little bit about our dreams for this little team. Okay, because Gina, I need them to see you. You are one of the most brilliant women I’ve ever had in this team. And I can’t have you being misunderstood in this with it’s

Gina  1:01:07

true because I shine in real life like behind. Like, even in my pictures. I look like garbage. Like I’m always like one I like, but in real life. It’s like a totally different story. Like my whole life. People are like, like, you look so different than your pictures, like you look cute in your pictures, but you’re so pretty in person. And I’m like, I know, because my pictures, I’m like this half the time, right? So it’s like, but it’s like, it’s like, you know, it’s an what’s the word I’m looking for? My brain is so fried. It’s like the same thing. It’s an allegory kind of, you know, it’s like, to my personality. It’s like, I don’t I’m not photogenic, but I am kind of cute in real life. So it’s like the same thing. Yeah.

Jody  1:01:47

And I think it’s so much about like, how hard is it to be stuck in your own head when, you know, to the core of who you are what you bring to the table. But the perception that often gets perpetuated,

Gina  1:01:59

where Nicklin I met because I knew I was doing a really fucking good job. I knew I knew what I was doing. And same for Nicola. But I kept getting told, You’re mean, you’re a bulldozer You’re a bitch, you make us all feel stupid. And I’m like, Well, if you feel a certain way, you might want to look in the mirror. Some of them were actually stupid. But, you know, like, you’re paying me for my experience. I’m sorry, if they make you feel stupid, go read a book, part

Jody  1:02:26

of the issue about that is right, you just want to be understood, for what you bring to the table. Right? And the truth is, there are people there who also felt unseen, right? Who also could feel in any meeting that, you know, we would walk over them, or we wouldn’t honour their ideas, or we wouldn’t do those kinds of things. Right. So it’s like, Could I be better at that fucking rights? I could be. Right. Yeah.

Gina  1:02:48

I could have been.

Jody  1:02:49

So how do we if I would have said to you, let’s get in the same room, I want you to actually learn a little bit about Cindy, because I gotta tell you, I mean, she is not. Her verbal ability to express her ideas is really shitty. But I’ll tell you, I’ve watched her construct some things and drive her ideas. She’s fucking killing it. So let’s get in the same room and I want to see what she can do. And I want your thoughts on her. Right? Can you imagine? Right? Then we actually want to come to the office, we want to be there. We want to build ideas. We want to do those things. Now. Is there a time in place where certain people don’t fit fucking rights? Right? And I reserve the right as a leader to be able to say, this isn’t a fit, you need to do your work, whatever that deal is in this process, right? Because this isn’t just like touchy feely. Everything’s goes we’re all gonna fucking Kumbaya. There is Take Charge moments. But I think often what we miss is that we have a really we want to diversity on our team to be able to offer different things right and when you can sort of recognise those things if we’re all alike and we’re all right, like maybe that that’s the scariest thing on the planet. But I think it’s it’s this idea of like people are hard to hate close up.

Gina  1:03:52

Yes. Oh my god, I love that. Ill you with all your little sayings.

Nicola  1:03:57

You know what these are going to be like all the social media posts. We’re just gonna have like, say, Oh, God is amazing. God loves on your gender journey.

Gina  1:04:05

Get out of my mind, God, Joanie, you to just fucked up my entire serotonin levels in good ways.

Jody  1:04:12

I’m so glad honey, I feel like you’re gonna have a really good rest of your day. I really confident about that. I think you’re actually gonna finally step back into the best parts of yourself and it’s really overdue.

Gina  1:04:23

Where can we get your book? I want to

Jody  1:04:27

Oh my gosh, I would love to autograph your book. I will send

Gina  1:04:30

you autograph it to the the 43 year old who is breastfed she was five Yeah. ongoing theme for the

Jody  1:04:38

that’s now how we’ll know each other if we ever get to

Nicola  1:04:41

hit my head onion story.

Gina  1:04:45

All right, well, I’m gonna go relieve the nanny but this has been amazing and I feel like I feel both filled up and also like, it’s just been weird. Like, weird because God like, like you just weird. Like there was something weird going on.

Jody  1:05:02

Oh, yeah, I needed to be here. So thank you so much for having me. It was such an honour. I needed this conversation to

Gina  1:05:10

tell us where we can find you where our listeners can find you do not watch this podcast because I cry half the time.

Jody  1:05:16

Oh, you’re amazing. It’s Dr. Jody carrington.com is where the website is. And the books are all over Indigo and Amazon and Barnes and Noble and all of those places. So buy it for your organisation, send it to your girlfriends. It will. I hope it will change your world. I think it will. I think

Nicola  1:05:33

uh, you know, I think this conversation specifically went a different direction to what I think we originally

Gina  1:05:39

it was amazing. But I feel

Jody  1:05:42

like that was our plan. Nicola, remember, we had a plan on the side of the road. Remember that plan that we made one time?

Nicola  1:05:47

We made a plan. We had a plan in place, but I think oh, you know what, it just took a left turn. And I’m

Gina  1:05:58

like good luck turns you have

Jody  1:06:00

to the universe tells us where we need to be. So we just let it happen. And it was perfect.

Gina  1:06:04

All right. Well, thank you. Take care,

Nicola  1:06:08

Jordi. And good luck with your book tour.

Gina  1:06:10

Yeah, good luck.

Nicola  1:06:14

Thank you for joining us today. If you would like to share your story, we would love to hear from you.

Gina  1:06:19

Also, leaving a review helps us create more content because it shows us there’s an interest in this topic.

Nicola  1:06:25

For those of our listeners who do beta with reading. We have close caption available on YouTube.

Gina  1:06:29

See you next week, same time, same place.

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