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S1E20: Was the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS) weaponised to create a toxic workplace?

Welcome to a brand new episode of “Let’s Break Up – Toxic Workplace Stories!” Hosts Gina and Nicola are back, ready to unveil the deep-rooted toxicity they encountered as they explore the alarming intersection between the EOS system and a toxic workplace. In this captivating episode, our special guest, Debra Chantry-Taylor, an esteemed Implementor of EOS and specialized business coach, joins Gina and Nicola to shed light on how the EOS system can be inadvertently weaponized, resulting in the creation of a toxic culture within organizations.

Drawing from their personal experiences, Gina and Nicola candidly share how the implementation of the EOS system at their workplace contributed to a toxic environment. Debra, armed with her expertise and vast knowledge, provides invaluable insights into the potential pitfalls and misuses of the EOS system that can lead to toxicity. This conversation goes beyond mere critique, as Gina, Nicola, and Debra delve into practical strategies and guidance for organizations and leaders to ensure a healthy implementation of the EOS system.

Discover how to identify warning signs, foster open communication, and build a positive work culture within the framework of EOS. Join us as we uncover the truth about the EOS system and its impact on workplace dynamics. Gain valuable insights that will empower you to recognize and navigate potential pitfalls, ultimately fostering a healthier, more supportive work environment. Subscribe now and hit the notification bell to stay updated on each episode of “Let’s Break Up – Toxic Workplace Stories.”

Don’t miss this eye-opening discussion that will reshape your understanding of the EOS system and its potential effects on workplace culture.

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Oh yeah.Speaker 2: 53:32

All these different shirts. No, that was the other Brian. That was T-shirt Brian Oh.Speaker 1: 53:37

T-shirt Brian. Oh my God, yeah, brian with the insurgents was very funny.Speaker 2: 53:41

Yeah, um, we had the lady with four million jobs. Do you remember that one Mm? hmm, i know Where she had like what was it Like? 47.Speaker 1: 53:54

Like her first. Like her first line out of the box was like I’ve had 46 jobs in the past 30 years and we’re like what.Speaker 2: 54:05

We’ve got Amy, who talks to us about toxic positivity, which is pretty cool, and then we had Stu, who was our most recent recording, yeah, talking about leadership, which I’m pretty bloody excited about.Speaker 1: 54:20

And now so we’ll be doing some more interviews, but also sprinkling in some of the research episodes.Speaker 2: 54:25

Yeah, and then we’ll be doing some research episodes is going to like is our next kind of step right? That’s our evolution.Speaker 1: 54:33

And we’ll see what happens. We’ll see what you guys like more And if you have any comments, thoughts, reactions, just reach out to us.Speaker 2: 54:39

Yeah, We really appreciate everybody’s comments. Yeah, We’ve had. I just, I just get so excited when someone comments, So if you could comment like like subscribe, share follow all those good things. Come join us on LinkedIn. Come join us on.Speaker 3: 54:55

Instagram, yeah, yeah Find us a good place.Speaker 4: 54:57

We’d be happy to have you.Speaker 2: 54:59

And we’ll see you in season two. Couple weeks, yeah, yeah, a couple weeks. Thank you for joining us today. If you would like to share your story, we would love to hear from you.Speaker 1: 55:10

Also, leaving a review helps us create more content because it shows us there’s an interest in this topic.Speaker 2: 55:16

For those of our listeners who do better with reading, we have closed caption available on YouTube.Speaker 1: 55:20

See you next week, same time and same place.

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Gina  00:00

This podcast may contain adult themes.

Nicola  00:03

This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

Gina  00:06

The views and opinions in this podcast are expressly when I get to the workplace. I like to fuck shit up. Honestly, every time I try to do something fun or exciting, you make it not that way. Hey,

Nicola  00:21

are you tired of toxic workplaces and the negativity that comes with them,

Gina  00:25

we hear you and we’re here to shake things up. Welcome to Let’s break up toxic workplace stories, the podcast that’s all about breaking up with workplace toxicity.

Nicola  00:35

I’m Nicola and I’m here with my co host Gina. Together, we’re going to explore real life experiences of workplace toxicity and offer a sense of encouragement and unity.

Gina  00:45

That’s right, we’re tackling the tough topic of negativity in the workplace.

Nicola  00:50

So join us each week as we explore the various forms of toxicity in the workplace. We’ll be interviewing guests to share their experiences and offer practical solutions for dealing with workplace toxicity.

Gina  01:02

Let’s break up is quickly becoming the go to source for anyone looking to share and then ditch the drama and help you break up with those toxic workplaces. Thanks for tuning in. And don’t forget to like, subscribe and tell all your friends

Nicola  01:16

in this week’s episode. dibh It is so great having you join us today. Thank you. How has your Friday been?

Debra  01:28

So it’s been good. It’s only plus 12. So far. So it’s only been the morning, but it’s been good. I’ve actually I’ve done a whole day podcast so far. So it’s my fourth podcast today. Yes.

Nicola  01:39

Wow. All right. Well,

Gina  01:40

so what are the topics been? That you were? Was it all EOS related or?

Debra  01:45

Not? Well, yes, actually, mostly they were today. So I had an EOS client talking about EOS. And I was talking with another EOS implementer, who’s got a podcast called elevate. And then there was just one about personal growth and development. Now this is going to be about EOS as well. So

Nicola  02:00

we’re gonna be curious, because we’re coming from a different angle.

Gina  02:03

I know. Yeah. A bit of a. So Devin, can you introduce yourself and give us a little background of what it is that you do kind of give us a general idea of what EOS is because not everyone in America knows what it is. I didn’t know what it was until I started working where Nicola and I met. Yeah, so take it away.

Debra  02:27

Sure. So, me personally, I am an iOS implementer. But I’m also a business owner as well. So I’ve been running businesses, pretty much my entire life. I had my first business when I was 13 years old at school. And then I worked worked for people running their businesses for a number of years, and then eventually went out on my own. I’ve had a couple of really successful businesses, couple of pretty bad train wrecks. And I actually came across EOS because they launched into our Event Centre, these, sorry, they use our Event Centre to launch into New Zealand. And that’s how I came across the methodology. And I read the books, and I loved it. And so I signed up immediately. And that was three and a half years ago.

Gina  03:04

And for those are only an EOS implementer, do you still have your own business, I

Debra  03:08

do still have my own business. It’s not a big business like I used to have. We’re sort of doing some stuff at the moment, we’re looking to build some retreats in Hawke’s Bay and barley set starting to grow again. So we had a couple of COVID basically stuffed up the Event Centre, as you can imagine it’s not Yep. So there was a lot of a lot of heartache and a lot of money that went down the drain in terms of closing that place up. So we’ve been rebuilding slowly. So we mostly do at EOS. But we have a couple of other things that we’re working on as well. So some communities stuff that we do, we’ve got the retreats that we’re building, and we’ve got a small, a small event space that we rent out as well. Oh, yeah. And if you don’t know what EOS is, I mean, basically, the way it is meant to be used is it is a tool, a framework that is designed to get entrepreneurial businesses 100% on the same page, in terms of their vision, where they’re headed, who they exist, for, why they exist, what they’re doing traction in terms of actually having discipline and accountability to execute on that vision, and healthy in terms it’s supposed to actually create a much healthier leadership team and wider team that works together for the greater good. Okay,

Nicola  04:16

so which which in in really, in theory.

Debra  04:22

Fantastic. Yes, absolutely. One. And to be fair, you know, I’ve done this with close to 26 Different companies now, and they get great results from it, and they certainly do achieve that. So, you know, done right. It certainly does do that.

Gina  04:37

And I think the framework is there for people to you know, get the most out of it. Yeah, unfortunately, Nicola and I were at a company that I think it was, it was almost weaponized. Yes. I

Nicola  04:55

which is what I’m thinking as well now. i Not that everybody on the planet class will be able to see those. But I have shared with everybody in the chat, our previous companies vie to write, along with the core values. And I thought it would be a good opportunity for us to kind of kind of talk about how we think the process was weaponized and kind of some of the ways that potentially, because we don’t want to make it all awful and a shame, because we know, we don’t realistically, in theory, it shouldn’t be a fantastic system, it should be a raid, well working well oiled machine system. And I would be curious to dig into some of those values, talk about that, and then also potentially talk about what some solutions could have been to not have this weaponized?

Debra  05:54

Sure. And that’s a really, really good conversation to have. Because I say in my experience, it is a great framework. I’ve been coaching for many, many years. So I think it is it, there’s nothing new in here, there was absolutely nothing about ESP kind of went, oh my god, this is world changing. It’s completely different. It’s based on all really good, solid business principles, good solid business research. You know, it really is amazing, if used correctly, but it has to be implemented correctly. And I guess that’s probably we’re gonna find there might have been some challenges.

Gina  06:23

I have a question the people who it works for Have they all had, like previous experience in just having jobs in general?

Debra  06:35

So what do you mean by that? Exactly?

Nicola  06:37

business experience, they’ve come from,

Gina  06:41

like a corporate job or a nine to five job previously, for maybe a couple of years, they’ve, you know,

Debra  06:49

because it is the Entrepreneurial Operating System. So many entrepreneurs never ever work in a corporate, I’m quite different. I spent a number of years working in corporate, you guys have worked in corporate law, people haven’t done that they’ve gone straight into entrepreneurism. So but it is designed for businesses that are established that have been going for some time, and who have got a good business. So you know, if you want to actually start using it and have a good business is about taking your business to the next level. Okay, okay. So

Gina  07:15

I think that thing as well, yeah, because I think part of the reason it felt and it felt very, like, non tangible, the way that at least to me, I don’t know, Nicola, if, if it felt like that to you. But it felt like it was just this idea floating around in the company. And we had to tick the boxes to make the higher up people happy. I personally saw no, no bonus from it. Like, I didn’t find it to be useful for me or my team. And I would get feedback from the higher ups, because we, ultimately, the company ultimately, ultimately purchased the EOS operating system like for you to do your meetings on. And I was told I wasn’t spending enough time in those meetings. And I’m like, Well, if we’re dealing with our problems outside of these meetings, and we’re getting our work done, why does it matter? That we’re not spending an hour in a team meeting? Like, that’s not how I work? So it was being used, in a way, almost a check up on us?

Debra  08:20

And I’d say I fundamentally disagree with that. Because I actually think, why would you spend time in meetings where you don’t need to spend time in meetings.

Gina  08:26

So this was a meetings over meetings over meetings back to back to back on the Eos system, or like, and it was just like, we never had time to do our real work, because everything was an all hands on deck meeting that couldn’t be missed, no matter what, like, even if you’re dying, you can’t miss this meeting.

Debra  08:43

Like it sounds like it might have been misconstrued. We’d certainly say that when we run level 10 meetings, there were only two reasons why you should miss it. One is that you are dying, or the other one is you’re you’re on leave, because we actually we completely believe in having leave, right annual leave is a great thing to have as sick leave etc, etc. But in reality, if it’s run properly, you should never be in no one person should ever be in more than two meetings a week and an absolute maximum they run from

Gina  09:09

say that

Nicola  09:11

one pagers was on

Gina  09:13

that odd because I don’t think our company got the memo.

Debra  09:17

They probably didn’t because honestly that it’s designed to get you out of meetings. It’s designed to take away all of those boring, useless, you know, completely wasted time meetings to get you down to two meetings. So unless you wore multiple hats in the business, the maximum number of meetings you should ever attend is two in a week. And they should be a maximum it was

Nicola  09:35

your your level 10 meeting of your peers and level 10 meeting for your underlings. And then essentially they are all doing their own thing anyways.

Gina  09:44

That’s right. Yeah. So that wasn’t what it was. I mean, I had a weekly meeting with the integrator. Yeah. Which was just a way to micromanage me. So that was a one on one meeting. Yeah. Every week

Nicola  10:00

well, every week for an hour, we had a one on one with the integrator and was around micromanagement.

Debra  10:07

So that’s that’s not EOS. I can tell you that for an absolute fact,

Gina  10:09

this is why I’m telling you I think they were using it in a manipulative weaponizing way. And I will be totally honest with you. I left and I thought EOS was a piece of shit. I thought it was like an MLM scheme. Yeah. Because that’s the way that the company used it. Yeah.

Nicola  10:29

Whereas I was, I was fully subscribed because I love me and operate.

Gina  10:36

But I didn’t find that it was an operating system that was organised because, for instance, um, we met with our EOS. I don’t, what are they like the one the one person? So we called him that, but I forget his name. But it was very clear, he did not know what the company did. So I was already like, what is going on here? Like he probably should have, like, at least visited our website before this all day meeting? Yep. He forgot the previous quarters rocks. He forgot, like, the core values, which I think we need to talk about. Yeah. And it just seemed like he really didn’t grasp what was going on. And so in any event, you know, we sat through the meeting, we all came up with our rocks, with due dates and all of that as you do, according to the MLS system. Yeah. Several weeks later, I was told my rock due date was changed, pushed up. And I was like, but we all agreed that it was going to happen like this was this was the pattern we were going to establish these were the dates whatever. Oh, I don’t think that’s really written in stone the integrator said.

Debra  11:58

Okay, so I’m gonna be really honest, it sounds like a completely bastardised version of Eos because that’s because EOS because they are a rock is do quarterly, that’s it, it has a one day, end of the quarter. That’s it doesn’t change. We don’t add rocks, we don’t remove rocks, we actually is designed to give you a laser sharp focus on what’s important. And it’s designed to take away micromanagement. So some segue all those pointless meetings,

Gina  12:26

it did the opposite of that it did the opposite, because it was always meetings, meetings, meetings, you didn’t spend enough time in your meeting with your team. The rocks are moving, we’re adding more more, it was like adding more things to our to do list always just constant changes that were not thought through. And I don’t think that’s how the EOS system is really supposed to be used. Am I was

Debra  12:53

complete opposite. I mean, all right. It’s designed to take away meetings.

Gina  12:58

They manage to take an operating system that seems on paper. And in theory, I have not had any other experience with it. Besides this one, which was horrible. I have never felt so micromanaged in my life. And totally corrupted. So what does that say about the people who are using the system?

Debra  13:23

I think the thing is that at the end of the day, a system is only as good as the people who are kind of working with it. And I think you can there’s good people and bad people, it’s good leaders and bad leaders, I think you can take a system and you can do whatever you want to with it. But in its true purest form. It’s designed to give you a little bit of a framework, so people can actually genuinely take accountability for their own areas and not have to be micromanaged, in fact, is designed to kind of spread that down. So that actually, we should be saying to you, hey, Gina, yeah, that’s your area, I don’t care how you do it, we’ve got some vegetables you want to achieve. That’s cool, we’ve got some rocks for you to get done. We expect you to do those. But how you do it, you’re accountable for that you should be doing that. My role, if I was an integrator in that business, is to remove obstacles and barriers. Tell me how I can help you if you’re stuck, I need to help you. But I shouldn’t be meeting with you every week apart from a leadership team meeting, I should be meet having two meetings a week that is one with my team, as you said your peers and one with the people who are in your your accountability, division function, whatever you call it. That’s the environment. Yeah. And if you finish before 90 minutes, we have I mean, like that’s, that’s good, because we don’t want to use that time to work on your rocks for God’s sake. And we don’t spend time in a meeting just because you’re supposed to be in a meeting. I tell my clients, you know, 90 minutes is the maximum. That’s just an amount. It sort of starts on time ends on time is it can finish early, early is good, but it needs to not go overtime. So we never want to be stuck in a meeting that goes over time because that is not good time management. But if you finish early, great, let’s use that time to do some productive stuff like working on The business. And that’s the way it was designed to work. So it feels like somebody has taken the system, which is actually pretty simple and pretty easy it is and using it to, not in the way it was intended. That’s what it sounds like.

Gina  15:12

I think that that the so in the Eos system, the the C E O is the visionary and the COO is the integrator. So I think those two got together and weaponized, it came up with bastardised it and like came up with their own system that was based on the Eos system. But what worked for them? Yeah, I’m

Nicola  15:37

kind of cherry picked what was Yeah, so cherry picked the core values, cherry picked the right seats, you know, kind of who should be in the right places.

Debra  15:50

And so again, I would say, you know, and I’m really passionate about this, this is a piece of work that you do together as a team, so that when you do your core values, you’re doing it together as a team, it’s not about one person deciding what they are. And assigned, that’s what you do, you’re meant to be developing. The whole VTR was developed as a team, with input from everybody who has you know, is on that leadership team to get the best possible result. And if it’s facilitated properly, it is literally about being able to say, hey, we sure we want some discipline, accountability, we want to have some regular meetings, wanna have some things we’re measuring, but we want you to get on and do it, because it’s your accountability. So and do that the whole visionary integrator thing? Yes, sometimes it’s SEO, it doesn’t matter, because we don’t use those kind of titles. But it’s not even about, it’s about just being really clear that this is your area of accountability, and we want you to take full accountability for it. We don’t want to micromanage you, because that doesn’t make any sense. Why would you do that?

Gina  16:47

So the integrator had had absolutely no business experience period ever. I don’t even think she held a job anywhere prior to becoming the integrator. And she was about 26 or 27. And I’m going to be 44. And it was, I really don’t I really don’t care about age because I don’t look my age, I probably don’t act my age. But in some of our first conversations, it was very clear to me that she didn’t understand like, normal retail business, business like, and yet, then she was micromanaging me. And in one of our one on ones, I remember her asking me, do you think that you can do this job, and I nearly lost my ever loving shit. I was like, I could do your job better than you plus my job. But I didn’t say that. But that’s in reality. Yes, that is the truth. What do you think about that? Do you think that’s a fair assessment? Nicola?

Nicola  17:55

I would say it’s a fair assessment. I think, I think overall, other than you and I, there was very little experience within the organisation. The visionary had very little outside experience. The integrator had very, like, zero done almost experience. I’d say your product person, zero? Well, no, your product person had some experience. And well, your team had some experience. Some, my team had some experience, but they were kind of whittled together. And it was, it was confusing, because we you know, I think between Gina and I, we know how kind of rational normal business should work, right. And it was frustrating seeing how this was then not the way things were created. So some of the rocks that were created, were, they weren’t kind of those high level, these are the business issues that we need to deal with. They were more kind of the we’re gonna get into the weeds. And these are things that potentially subordinates could do kind of down the track in that accountability space. That could be their rocks. It doesn’t need to be a visionary or integrator rock, right. And it was really interesting, especially when it came down to strategy and planning strategy because none of them across the board just understood or grasp the concept of what business strategy actually means. So I’m curious to know there is to know what happens when, what what how, how do you deal with that when you go into a business and you’ve got a entrepreneur whose great idea fabulous idea wants to make phone case, stickers. But none of them have experienced. How do you deal with that as an implementer coming in and saying, Hey, like, none of you know anything about business? How do we kind of wrangle that around? How do we swing it back?

Gina  20:17

Can I take a guess that your answer before you answer it? Yeah, sure. So there’s a part in the Eos book that says you have to have the right people in the right seat. So you hire people with those experience. That

Nicola  20:30

noise? Like take that one out?

Gina  20:33

Yeah, right. But, but I think that’s the exact point of Eos. So they had the right person me in the right seat, product development, overseas shipping logistics, but they didn’t like my methods, which were proven. And they didn’t like how I wrote emails.

Debra  20:54

So to me, though, I was like, there’s a cultural misfit, which is, which is fine, that happens, right? It’s good. It’s good that that happens, because it makes both people make a choice. But I was actually going to say, you actually, when you’re designing your accountability chart, and talking about what the main functions are, and including the visionary and the integrator, there’s an exercise that you go through to actually go, the people who were going to put into those seats, we don’t put people’s names in there at all, we actually ask people who has the right skills to actually do this job. And we actually get to put their hand up, and we go to the GW see, do you get it fundamentally get what this role is about? Now, if you are an integrator, do you actually really get what an integrator role is, because their role is to hold the business plan that we’ve all put together and make sure it works, keep the team working together, and remove obstacles and barriers and do some special projects. That’s it. They’re not designed to kind of get down in the weeds, organising things. That’s what the next level is for, then you have to ask, do they really want it because wanting it means you want to jump out of bed in the morning actually go and do it. But most importantly, they have the capacity to do it. And capacity is not time capacity to they have the knowledge, the technical expertise, the experience, the qualifications, to actually do that role. And if you don’t have all three ticks on that, for both the visionary, the integrator and all of the levels, you’ve got to actually say we’ve got an issue here. And maybe somebody can babysit a role for a while while we find the right person. But we’ve got to have, and when I say right person, the right seat, the person who can do that job, somebody who shares our core values is the right person, the right seat is do they actually get it, we don’t have capacity to do it. And every organisation I work with, we make them go through that. We have people swapping roles in I’ve had a company that was 30 years in, and their sales and their operations person went through this exercise actually said, I really wanted the other role. I think I’m actually much better suited to sales rather than operations and vice versa. And we went around the table and everybody got to actually have their say, Do you think this person genuinely gets it? Do they really want it? Do they have the capacity to do it? And every person on the team had the option to input into that? And I could say, You know what, actually, let’s go. Let’s hit Nicola was the integrator aka Nicola, I’m going to be really honest with you here right now. You know, we’re a team, we’re here for the greater good. I think you kind of get the role a little bit, I’m not sure you get 100%. I hear that you want it. And that’s fantastic. But from a capacity point of view, I’m going to be honest, I don’t think you have the capacity to do it. And then I have to explain to you why I don’t think you do. And I think that’s because you haven’t got the right experience. You haven’t got the qualifications, I don’t think you’ve had enough time to actually get your head around it. So I don’t believe you actually do WC it. And we do we do that with a whole team and allow them to give that feedback. And then if we choose to put somebody in that role, who doesn’t have that, as a team, we’ve made that decision. And we might say it’s only a babysitting role for three months till we find somebody better. But there’s no automatic, right? Just because you’re the owner, you become the visionary or just because you’re the person’s friend, you become the integrator, you’ve actually got to GWS for that role all of them have to.

Gina  23:51

So where’s the checks and balances there? What are implementer have at some point needed to do that with a team? Yeah,

Debra  24:02

so the whole leadership team does that in the initial stages of Eos. So they actually literally sit down with a big whiteboard and they go right one way with the EOS implementer with the EOS implementer. And the whole leadership team, we sit down, we draw up the ideal functional structure of the organisation for the next 12 months. So not even right here right now. But for the next 12 months where we’re what do we need? What are the main functions?

Gina  24:25

So then how did someone get the integrator role in our company that lacked experience? Didn’t understand because because planning, retail planning or retail marketing or retail scheduling on any level, I had to tell her consistently that marketing, there’s a buying calendar and there’s a marketing calendar.

Nicola  24:49

I’ll tell you exactly how she got into that role. I will tell you because I was in the implementer all day to get into this

Debra  24:57

right okay, cool. I was honestly

Gina  25:00

I had this happen. And did anyone did anyone object because I was the first to

Nicola  25:05

object. So all right, from the minute we started Eos, I did not miss one meeting for the entire duration of my time there. So I was in every single meeting every single implementer meeting all day sessions, the planning the all the things. And I clearly remember integrated a, because both myself and your person put our hands up to be the integrator beep was on the leadership team with us up until you started. Right? Right, the change management was shipped. And she was just kicked off the leadership team and you were inserted. So I will, we had both put up our hands and said, Look, I think I wouldn’t be a good fit for integrator. And I have a good how business works. I can see where we’re the trajectory we’re heading in, let’s go. But it came down to the visionary making the final decision on that it wasn’t a team decision. It wasn’t a team discussion. And she in the old day meeting selected the kind of customer service lead to step up and be the integrator because she gets along with everybody so well.

Debra  26:38

So there’s a fundamental flaw because I actually think the integrator is not this is the person who has a tough conversations. They’re not actually meant to get along with everybody really well. They need to keep the glue together and capable on the same team. But they’ve actually got to be really prepared to have tough conversations. So yeah, anyway, that’s an interesting one.

Nicola  26:57

Or it was it wasn’t a team decision. Was

Gina  27:01

it? Was there the ability to comment on it Nicola, during that once

Nicola  27:05

the decision was made? No, there was no, there was no debating after the decision had been made. We all had to go there,

Debra  27:11

like go through PwC though, did everybody get a chance to go? wasn’t

Nicola  27:15

around PwC when GW said every other role, except for the integrator role,

Debra  27:22

right. So there’s a fundamental flaw we’re not following process if you like. The whole point is that actually, even to the visionary level, we get to decide as a leadership team who we think is the right visionary, because it’s structure first people second. And so I’ve had examples where in a company, a young person put their hand up to be a visionary, we’ve had to go around the table and kind of explain with a TWC or not, and then we’ve made a call as a team as to who actually gets the wrong. Because we’ve done the discussion, we’ve had our say, and then we get to as a team decide who who is the right person for the role. And we have to have the conversations until the team is really comfortable. They’ve made the right decision.

Gina  28:00

So like that would mean that the person whose idea the original idea, like I own a company, right, the idea is not original, but I I founded it, you know, we’re like 11 years in whatever. Yeah, if I’m not just because I started the company doesn’t mean I’m the best person to be the visionary. A different

Debra  28:20

stages in the company. No, definitely not. You think about EOS as a classic example, Gino Wickman, who wrote the EOS structure is not the visionary for EOS run by third visionary. We now have Mark O’Donnell before that we had Peter and I think it was so you know, the visionary role changes over time as well. And it doesn’t happen. I think

Gina  28:39

that that was part of the problem is that internally the company culture was so toxic that they put the visionary and the integrator on such pedestals and everyone wanted to like just to like it and please them and placate and I I didn’t play that game. Like I was just like, what? Leave me alone. Let me do my fucking work kind of thing. That’s how I work best is to leave me alone. And let me just power through all this stuff. And I will get you results and I will get what needs to be done done. But I was always being micromanaged by the integrator.

Debra  29:23

Yeah, so again, I’m not gonna say that’s not that’s not EOS. That’s not it’s not right. It’s not no. My role is as a leader, any leader in an organisation I’m really passionate about leadership. I’m a trained leadership coach as well, is to actually enable your team to step up. It’s to enable them to do the stuff that they’re really really great at. We talked about unique ability, like what is the stuff that you’re really good at you love you’re great at, that’s what we want you doing? And our role as a leader is to make sure you people can do that. And you’re there to remove obstacles and barriers to train them to hold their hand if that if needed. If needed, but not not to micromanage No, no, but if you’ve got an microman If someone you’ve met, you’ve got, you’ve got a hiring mistake on either end of that equation. Right? So it’s like, let’s catch the real crux of the issue and then discuss all the possibilities and use all of that brainpower that’s here in the leadership team to come up with the right answer. But you only need to do that when you’re stuck. Otherwise, actually, genius team, if you’ve got full accountability, you know, what the outcomes are, they require, we you’re supposed to just be allowed to get on with it. That’s the whole point of the accountability thing is actually, we fully trust you. That’s why you’re in this role, you should be getting on with it. But you need to come to us if you get stuck. And we’re here to help you. You know. So again, one of the roles of the integrator is to actually keep the visionary away from the day to day operations. The hope that didn’t have a visionary box is the visionary. They are amazing people, right? They have ideas that can sometimes change the whole world. But as a visionary myself, I also have lots of shit ideas, right? So I will have 50 ideas in a week and 49 of them are absolutely shit. A one might be okay. All 50 a shit. So that’s okay. We have to recognise that. And the whole point of having an integrator is that we that they should be the the what was the right word? They’re kind of the they’re there to stop the visionary from getting involved in the day to day decisions stuff the day to Operation stuff, so that by the time any ideas come down for leadership team, they’ve already been sanity checked, we’ve already made sure that she makes sense. We’ve made sure it’s not just a whim that Deborah’s on this week.

Gina  31:19

Big in this company. I don’t think there were sanity checks, period. I think that’s that’s part of the major issue here.

Debra  31:26

Yeah, well, I can’t do anything about that. What I’m saying is that part of the process is designed to do right, so disastrously, because I worked with a company where the visionary was this amazing lady like super, super smart, super great at what she did was the big picture stuff. But she had lots and lots of ideas. They never had an integrator. And so she would have the entire leadership team, working ridiculously long hours trying to implement all these ideas that she had. And then by the time they got around to almost finishing them, she’d moved on, she’s on to something else, right? And that’s what visionaries do. That’s perfectly normal. And I think we have to accept, that’s what entrepreneurs do. So you put the integrator in to go, Hey, so my integrator, we have a meeting, I tell about my crazy ideas once a week. And she either goes, she’ll go out there, but let me sit on that for a week. And she sits on it for a week. And then she comes back next week. She has a Deborah, how are we going with that idea you had last week? Oh, no, I’ve moved on from that. Now I’m on to something else. So that’s their role is to actually kind of filter out the stuff that’s just a whim. And also to sanity check it to it before it ever comes into the business. We’ve got a VTR we know what we’re focused on. We know what our one year targets are, we know on your goals, we know what our 90 Day rocks are, does this fit in with it or not? If it doesn’t, we park it and the intricate parks it and goes, we’ll come back to that the whole point of doing iOS is to have a laser sharp focus that goes, We’re not going to keep switching and changing every week because somebody want changes their mind, it’s like we have 90 day things. So we actually focus on something for 90 days. If it doesn’t work out, we can change at the end of 90 days. But we did not change focus on that 90 days. We’d stop doing something who wasn’t working immediately, of course, but it’s like that’s what it’s designed to do is give you take all of that craziness away all of that manic rushing around doing all this shit that isn’t necessarily relevant, and focus on the things that are important. So I don’t know, I can only speak from my experiences is it’s not designed that way. Don’t you don’t have to do it. The visionary says, just because they’re a founder of a company, the whole point of iOS is to give them a role that goes this is your role. But we decide as a team what is best, the leadership team is here for the greater good of the entire organisation. And we make the major decisions together.

Gina  33:33

So in their defence, I think they attempted to do that very weakly. I don’t think the integrator had the ability to weed out what was a good idea and what wasn’t because there was a lack of experience and maturity. And I think it was very difficult for her to tell the visionary. No. Yeah.

Debra  33:58

So I’m going to be honest, I think 27 year I mean, I was a CEO at 27 so I gotta be careful but I think in general terms 27 years old is you don’t have enough experience and you don’t have the the manner if you like to actually stand up to people and kind of go hey, no and and the integrator role is really important because a they have to stand up the visionary. They should be challenged them on every single thing

Nicola  34:20

to be able to go toe to toe you need to lately Hey, great idea by but not gonna float for us.

Debra  34:29

Or even better. You know, what, have you really thought about that? Because it sounds good right now. But what about this, this is and challenge the visionary to actually think about the things that they’re doing. That’s what then that comes with a certain level of maturity. And I’m not sure most 27 year olds would have that don’t

Gina  34:44

know, I think there’s outliers of course. But I would say to you, even though you’re co CEO at 27 Did that business succeed?

Debra  34:55

Oh, yeah. It was established business and we had 220 staff and and we actually went from flatline to growth, because I’m focused. So yeah, but that’s an outlier.

Gina  35:05

Yeah, that’s an outlier, right. But like, I had a business around the same age and I didn’t. I like that business, I had to shut it down. Because it just wasn’t I didn’t, I didn’t have enough experience yet. On how to run a successful business, it wasn’t until I brought a business partner into the mix, that that actually happened. So I think you’re right, I think 27 The majority of people, especially with no outside work experience you just went from, I don’t even know, did she go to college? I don’t know. But it doesn’t.

Debra  35:46

She had she has to GW the role. And part of that role is managing that visionary. And it is managing the leadership team to help them not to hinder them. So you know, you’ve got to actually ask the question, Did she really GW see it? And it doesn’t sound like she did. And on that basis,

Gina  36:01

remind our listeners what GW C means.

Debra  36:04

So get is to really get it to you actually, because getting it means like, I have been a CEO, I understand the role of an integrator, what is required? I mean, I really get it want it is Do you genuinely want it because an integrator is about having tough conversations with a visionary, tough conversation with a leadership team. And really holding people accountable for what has been agreed at a leadership team level is our plan. So it’s a really tough role. Like there’s a certain person that will get and want to be an integrator. And then capacity is rootsy. The C part is capacity to do it. So not time capacity. We’ve all got 27 hours in a day, we’re sorry, 24 hours a day, seven days,

Gina  36:42

I wish, I wish we had 20.

Debra  36:47

That’s my brain not quite keeping up with my mouth. But you know, we’ve all got the same time capacity. But do you actually genuinely have like the the technical knowledge, the experience, the expertise, the qualifications, there are certain parts of a role that you just need to have certain things that enable you to better do it? I can do accounting, right? I can don’t want to don’t really get it. But I don’t really I don’t really have the capacity, I can do it. But it would take me 10 times as long, and I’d make 20 times as many mistakes. So I’d like G WC accounting. Well, no, I don’t. And so on that basis, you’d never put me in that role. Not unless you want to do a company to fail. It’s so so we roll should be looking at that we should be looking at looked at and said Does this person actually GW so that role, and if they don’t, we can sometimes sometimes, in a rare occasion, agree they can babysit it for a while, and maybe have some training and some, you know, brought up to speed, but not in an important role like an integrator. I actually think your integrator has to GW say that role 100% Because it’s not a role you can grow into it’s not a role that you can, it’s a tough role. And you want somebody who completely 100% gw sees

Gina  37:55

that? Yeah, yeah,

Nicola  37:58

no, that makes sense. And I think I think that kind of moves into our next kind of space, because I was just looking through the range option. Yeah, I’ll let I’ll link the book. So people can also read the book, because personally, I think it’s a great system, because as I said earlier, love me an operating system. It just makes things easier. And secretly I have. Don’t tell anyone, but I’ve secretly bastardised the level 10 meetings for health and safety meeting. Okay, that works. It just works. Like tell me you issues and then let’s have accountability. And you’ve got a week to sort it out. Sort out. Yep. I love it works perfectly. Sure. we’ve tweaked a couple of things, but it kind of keeps the core the core basis.

Debra  38:41

You’re making my heart pound but it’s okay. I’ll let you do that. As I said, Nothing in iOS is new. is best. You do a pure but at the end of the day, sometimes we make tweaks Yeah,

Nicola  38:51

yeah. Because obviously

Gina  38:51

the but your whole operating system at the government is not EOS. So she’s just picking part of it.

Nicola  39:01

I would love to see the whole government use you always know Brock.

Gina  39:05

Right. So you’re using what you can where you can. God,

Debra  39:10

I’m all for that. Absolutely. All for that. Yeah.

Nicola  39:14

I think that does kind of lead into kind of the next thing around the core values that we had the doctors use isms, if you will.

Debra  39:21

Yep. Yeah.

Nicola  39:25

Oh, Gina. Yeah. And I remember the day we created these, they were created as a team. And the process that we used was we selected a couple of our core employees that were just stand up performers, our top performers, one of which was let go because God knows why because they didn’t fit the mould that the integrator and the visionary wanted to portray, I guess, which is really disappointing because they were lauded as the top performer. Right like that How bizarre we’ve based a tonne of these core values based on someone that just got booted out of the business. Yeah,

Gina  40:11

it was that was that was a you.

Debra  40:14

Okay, just follow the process sounds good. You pick your top performers and you said what they created.

Nicola  40:20

Dr. Susan and I’m going to go through the previous core values before we get into the EOS core values right because I feel like they are a juxtaposition. The previous core values were focused on mental well being and thoughtfulness and for the employee. This means free health insurance for full time and part time employees unlimited paid time off. flexible schedules Safe Work a safe space to talk about struggles and understanding of employees to take personal days safe working space, we will not tolerate any discrimination that creates a hostile or unpleasant environment for employees. For the employee. This means dedicated to creating unique products not copying current trends, but setting trends, free tools and items to all employees and opportunities to learn and grow outside of their current roles. Be kind to yourself, others and to the environment. For employees. This means allowing employees to set their own schedules, understanding the need to be kind to themselves and take time off cultivating a diverse workspace where all people feel welcomed and dedicated designing environmentally responsible packaging working with FSC certified manufacturers and eliminating the stop eliminating the use of plastic and shipping. And finally, the one that lets me oddest Happy birthday to you. The employee, this means employees should be celebrated, good work is rewarded. And each employee is valued for their own unique set of skills, working on ways to do this, and create a better environment bonuses each year for all employees part time and hourly. So those were kind of the four core values before we started ers. Okay, my first question

Debra  42:22

is, did people actually live and breathe those? Was it genuinely? Okay, cool.

Gina  42:27

But you know, these were not the environmental stuff? Well, I

Nicola  42:31

think they were led to believe that that was true. Okay. Well, it wasn’t. It wasn’t true. But I think they were led to believe that it was because I don’t think they had the experience around sustainability and environmental responsibility to actually talk to that appropriately.

Gina  42:50

You know what I mean? Fair enough. Yep. Yep. Yeah, so

Nicola  42:52

let’s give them that one. It’s good to know. So anyway, so those were the four core values for the longest time, before Eos, the ers process came about. Everybody could list these off the top of their head, everybody lived and breathed, these, these were like the ones that we would display out to customers. These were the ones that were internal, external, all of the places, so you could always find them. And I haven’t been there for a long time, I believe that it was a really good culture that we had created with those,

Gina  43:24

those core values are way nicer, and much more gentler than what we ended up with.

Nicola  43:33

Yeah, so let’s go in

Debra  43:37

the process that you went through to get to these new six core values, I see you on the video.

Nicola  43:42

So we went through the standard process of you know, identifying your top performers, what, you know, what embodies that environment? I think we spent a good two and a half hours discussing what these would be. I think we think we had two half days from memory. Okay. I feel like from it all, we had two full days, like, consecutively quite like, and we were allowed to go and think about them, you know, kind of come back with feedback. And all of this, all of the leadership team were to kind of help and define what these means. Let’s go. Let’s hop into these core, Dr. Susie isms. We get things done. I think we should get things done.

Debra  44:30

Yep. Yep, absolutely. But if that I

Gina  44:32

think that’s just how business is supposed to work. Like you get shit done. Yeah, I don’t think it needs to be a core value.

Debra  44:40

So there’s a couple of things. I’ll talk about core values in a second that we usually call out on but okay, yeah, we get things done. Surprisingly, some businesses are not focused on that. So yep. Okay. But did that come from your top performance? Is that one of the, one of the behaviours you saw

Nicola  44:53

one of the behaviours was that the top performance always got stuff done. Yeah, everything always got done. Yep. Okay, business before yourself. Right. Okay. So always put the company first. I agree I put in from memory, I think I put an optimistic mindset because I’m always optimistic about everything. And I also very much put in being customer obsessed. So be obsessed with your customer so that you can really drive what that marketing programme would look like. Right? But always company first and no ego or drama. So no blame, etc, etc. Kind of all the things around being accountable for your own behaviour, right? Lean with it. So expect growth and change. B figure out trouble and kind of be nimble with movement. Don’t hate that one. Always on board with being flexible and adaptive. Be comfortable with the uncomfortable ask any questions bring fresh ideas and speak now or forever hold your peace.

Gina  46:09

Oh, interesting. My favourite.

Nicola  46:13

My my personal favourite to and show genuine kindness. Start up from the you know, stuff from her and put yourself in other people’s shoes and show grace allow room for improvement. Okay, so give us give us your professional opinion on where you think these potentially have landed?

Debra  46:34

I have no idea. But my first thing would be six bloody hell do you actually remember any of those? Because I

Nicola  46:39

the only one I remembered was the business before yourself? Because it was catchy?

Debra  46:44

Yeah, before? Yeah. My professional thing is six seems like it’s way too many how you can possibly remember all those? I don’t know.

Gina  46:52

Well, apparently I went against all six all the time. Oh, that’s nice. Yeah, that’s because

Nicola  46:58

your deck?

Debra  47:02

I will I can say is I don’t know about the value, the value should come from your top performance. Without a doubt you should define, you know, how do you create more of the people you actually want? And so as long as they fit those people? That’s absolutely cool. Where do I think they ended up? I have no idea. I mean that some of them I kind of go. You talked about Gina, you know, shortly, that’s just what happens. We’ve talked about permission to play kind of values, which means that he has some things that are just hygiene factors, right. So we never use words like integrity or honesty, because actually, you just kind of expect that. But to be fair, I think some companies aren’t honest about their core values. I think that, you know, if you went to work on Wall Street, for example, their core values should be every man for himself, dog eat dog, you know, results before health, you know, that would be that your core values that they die before you

Nicola  47:47

get off that that field?

Gina  47:50

I think that core values, those core values. Also were what these core values are hidden. There that’s like hidden in there. Because it’s like, company before you which is fine. But at the same time, how can you do that when you’re a mental health company and you want to value your employees like II it’s a murky area. And then somehow

Debra  48:13

it slipped out. So for me, I mean, I would say you know, it’s for the greater good, we always work for the greater good. So we do it because we actually have one of our core values that EOS is actually about always thinking about the greater growth of the business as opposed to the individual kind of desire that you want from it. And I’m perfectly cool with that provided it’s used in a positive way, which does not mean that you completely ignore your staff and think that they don’t their stuff doesn’t matter because that’s not true at all.

Nicola  48:41

I was this one for my team, we would work pretty much 24/7 Right. I was working because you know being based in New Zealand the timezone has shut. Sure. So I would work from like 3am to 11pm every day.

Debra  48:59

Well, yeah. I would recommend that for anybody you know that no,

Gina  49:04

she was a totally different human being she was like cranky, like you know, lack of lack of lack of sleep to the bone is still Botox lipst

Nicola  49:22

I still love you and

Gina  49:23

you know, my top lip is Botox Deborah. So sometimes like I have a hard time pronouncing. Okay, and sometimes I dribble when I drink because I can’t really like Tucker.

Debra  49:36

Thanks for sharing. Yeah, um, values. I mean, no company should ever expect a person to work excessive hours, like the whole, you know, I’m actually my integrator was employed in a four day workweek, I actually believe five days, and she does four days and I think that actually, that is the way that the less hours that you do you genuinely are more productive within reason. Yeah. So I don’t think any of any values should be used to force people to work long hours. That’s actually bad business behaviour. But tell me, tell me how they landed. Because that to look at them on the surface, I kind of go, yeah, they’re not they’re not awful, but it’s about how they’re implemented. That’s actually the important thing. So it’s definitely too many of them. If they came from the people that you you valued, then it makes sense. But how long have you been watching live by them?

Gina  50:22

What do you think about the two that are contradictory? Like, be bold and brave? And what was the one that contradicts that? I don’t even remember them, because there’s too many. But

Nicola  50:32

be bold and brave. But,

Gina  50:35

but speak now or forever? Hold your peace. So what if you’re in a project and you realise like, oh, shit, I need help, you know, but speak now or forever hold your peace. So, but also be bold and brave. So what is it? What should we do? Like, what is it? I know, I haven’t worn bold and brave. Like when Nicola and I would challenge people we’d get, we’d get rid of like a slap on reprimanded, like a slap on the hand.

Debra  51:09

So it sounds to me like, they’re not values that were actually being upheld. I mean, at the end of the day, you, you should have values that you absolutely do live and breathe by and I can’t comment. So it wasn’t there. But it just feels like No, I know. But yeah, they’re kind of you know that. The whole point is, it’s not to come up with some flashy looking values that we can kind of go, yeah, we’ve got a tick box, we’ve done it. I hate that that’s absolutely not the approach to values at all, is designed to build up a set of core values that you genuinely live and breathe by, that everybody understands. And so

Gina  51:39

can you give us an example of a company that is successfully implanted it, and what their core values are just so we can get the contrast of like, good core values?

Debra  51:51

There isn’t such a thing as good for core values or bad core values, it really comes down to the individual business. So I think it’s really important that we say that because it’s it is, but I’ve been I’ve got like, these core

Gina  52:01

values seem very like loosey goosey. Like, they don’t really mean too much when you look at them, in my opinion. Yeah, I mean,

Debra  52:11

again, it comes down to how they are shared how their people talk about them, how they, they use, they have to be really, really clear. So I mean, I’m looking at a company that I’ve got over here in New Zealand, who actually has six core values, I’ve always said to them, six, so many do, we have to have six, but they wanted to have six, and at the end of the day, it’s not our role as an implementer, to force people to do anything, we can give you all the reasons why something should be done, but the company has to own it. And they’ve got things they’ve got humbly confident. And when they talk about I can’t remember the the actual core value of speech, but they talk about the fact that you know, we want we want people who know their stuff, we don’t want arrogance and accompany exceeding expectations. So that is very much around, you know, doing more than what you say you’re going to do. Always exceeding expectations, positively determined, socially authentic, ethically honest, and trailblazers. Now, I know that this company uses those day in day out. And they don’t reprimand anybody, if they if you say you’re going to be socially authentic, and somebody believes that we’re not being social, but they they are free to challenge each other on that. That is what a healthy environment is we got to challenge what is going on in our environment. So if you’re told to be bold and brave or taught to be a trailblazer, and then somebody you know gets reprimanded for pushing the boundaries, you’re not living by the core values as a team you’re it’s perfectly okay to have those conversations about well, that’s not what we say we are so why are we not doing you know, like I’m not living by them.

Nicola  53:38

You know what I just realised one Gino Deb I don’t know if you listen to some of our other episodes.

Debra  53:48

Only a little bit because I didn’t want to be too scared coming into this.

Nicola  53:53

Not scary.

Gina  53:55

No, we’re not.

Nicola  53:58

Unless we are do we need to have a chat. But what I what I just realised is core value number three are in your shares. The bottom one no grudges Gina? Was I not fired over a three year long grudge?

Gina  54:19

Yes. More or less? Yes. Yeah.

Debra  54:21

So that so then I’m gonna say it’s not your sort of a problem at that company, not kind of living and breathing. Yeah. Because I know I’ve seen a

Gina  54:32

pack of fucking imbeciles grasping at an operating system that is simple enough for imbeciles to actually grasp it, but not grasping it fully to implement it properly. Because it’s very simple. Like you said, you’re not reinventing the wheel. It’s not very simple. It is priceless, right? Yeah. So they in theory thought they could implement Under properly, but because there was really not a set of checks and balances in place proper ones. It became bastardised. I think it was like a lot of just inexperience, like layered on top of like, not being the sharpest tool in the shed. And I don’t think or not knowing what’s best for you, even when other people are telling you what’s best for you. And I think that that’s sort of how became bastardised because it was absolutely weaponized, like when you tell an employee, the reason why you’re getting fired, even though I’ve learned so much from you, the reason why you’re getting fired is because you want all you want against all the core values, but they wouldn’t explain details. That’s weaponization, ya

Debra  55:51

know. So again, I’m going to be if you’re using ers properly, when you’re having these conversations about people you have as we have the people analyzer, right, where you can go here are five core values, and we give you a plus or minus plus minus, plus or minus or plus minus, you actually, I always say if you’re going to plus, that’s great. And maybe give an example, if you go plus minus, you’ve got to tell them three examples of where they’re not actually doing that there’s got to be three data points, as you say, so I’ll give you one of my really good, yeah, let’s have five great values, like they’ve got family first, constantly making sure our family is 100%, healthy and happy, go hard or go home, we do whatever it takes healthy and happy body, mind, soul and world. Straight up, we tell it like it is and feel the fantasy, we push the boundaries right? Now, when I was having a conversation around people in that it doesn’t, you know, go hard or go home does not mean you work ridiculous hours, we do whatever it takes. But we also know we’ve got family first. So we’re going to balance that. But if I was to say to you, look, I don’t believe you are going going hard or going home, but I think you can do whatever it takes, I’ve got to give you three examples that you’ve where you’ve not done that. Because otherwise I’m not, we’re not using the tool properly. The tool is designed as a leader to help you to live raise the bar, and everybody will get plus minuses at times, right? We’ve got we’re all human beings, we all have shit going on. And there are times when I will not be healthy and happy. Because I you know, there’s stuff going on. And I’m just not doing the right things for my body, mind and soul. And so my my, as a leader, the role is to say, Hey, Dad, we gotta have a bit of chat here, right? One of our core values here at this XYZ company is healthy and happy. And I’ve just noticed in the last couple of weeks, you know, you haven’t really been healthy and happy most of the time, I’m giving you a plus minus or maybe even a minus. And here’s why I think that is like, I haven’t seen you go to the gym. I haven’t seen you smiling around here. And in fact, you’re actually getting quite negative in our meetings. And I just don’t believe you’re putting the time and effort in to look after yourself. What’s going on for you? And how do I help you with that? That’s what it’s designed to do. It’s not designed to go you’re not, you know, point the finger, you’re not the right person. It’s actually as a leader, what can I do to help you that what’s going on? And I go, that was

Gina  57:53

never, that was never anything that I ever heard come out of any of the leaders?

Nicola  57:58

I’m curious, like, when do you know when you got fired? Because they said that you went against all the core values, right? Did they give you other than your emails? Did they give you any example?

Gina  58:09

No. So you know how many ELLs, like you get your 60 day review, and then they’ll bring up I guess whatever plus minus, you need to work on. So mine was like, watch the way I typed my emails, basically, because I was coming across

Nicola  58:31


Debra  58:32

Okay, again, can’t come out on the individuals. But the whole point of the iOS devices. First of all, we don’t have formal performance review. It’s only once a year, what an annual review is done once a year. And it is based on the core values. It’s based on what’s working, what’s not working. So it’s 360 degree feedback, how can I help you and you develop a plan to actually do that, then we have these things called quarterly conversations. And they’re designed to be quarterly conversations that the title kind of gives it away, right? It isn’t a full performance review. It is a conversation that goes Hey, here at XYZ company at five core values, or blah, blah, blah, just a bit of a heads up. I really think you’re great at this great at that. Got a bit of an issue around here. Soon as I’ve got an issue. Here’s my three examples of where you’re not actually meeting that. And then the next question is what’s going on? How do I help you? And also if people have got an issue with you, it doesn’t wait to a quarterly conversation. And issue is dealt with as soon as it happens in private away from our meetings. You should be going Hey, Gina, can I have a I wouldn’t even do in front of people. I will approach you after me to go do it if we have a quick word. Hey, look, I just noticed in that meeting, one of the things that you did was x y Zed. I don’t believe that meets our core values. I think we need to work on that. What can I do to help you with that? So I think values are designed to actually help both the business and the people to go do he fit in here. Maybe I don’t and if you know, maybe we’re gonna go somewhere else. That’s absolutely cool. But I want to be really, really clear the EOS process is it’s designed once a year you get a formal review do quarterly you have conversations? That’s all they are conversations? And it’s about finding out what’s working, what’s not working, how do we help you? What can we do? And then if we’ve got a real issue with somebody, it’s dealt with immediately it’s dealt with in private, that is the EOS way, Praise is given in public dealing with issues done in private. And it’s done with the basis of how do we help you get better, and leaders role is only to get the best from their people. That’s it. And EOS gives you all the tools to do that. It’s not designed to help people, sack people or fire people unless they’re not actually performing. And let’s face it, every business owner has a right to, you know, hold people accountable. But it’s not designed to be you know, it doesn’t sound like it was used in the correct way. That’s what I would say,

Nicola  1:00:44

you know, what, I found this conversation really interesting, because I think it really, you know, we assumed because it had been touted to us as being delivered as the full EOS system. But I think you’re right, I think the issue here was that it was it was bastardised, there was a lack of experience, there was, you know, a number of elements that weren’t being done correctly, properly. Yeah, cherry picked to suit the current climate or current, whatever was needed at that point in time. And I think that’s where some of those core kind of disconnects are patterns. And what we

Debra  1:01:26

haven’t, we have a whole module called LMA, right, and LMA stands for Leadership, plus management equals accountability, where we actually teach all of the managers what leadership good leadership actually looks like, we teach them how to use the people analyzer to be a good leader, we teach them how to manage how to hold them accountable. And so we actually teach all of these really, really cool tools that actually give them the ability to become better leaders, better managers, and you know, every single person or business as a leader and a manager, if they’ve got people. And I don’t believe that they’re two separate things, I think, actually, you have to both lead and you have to manage, and that helps to hold people accountable. So we actually help them understand this, and we give them tools to become better,

Gina  1:02:05

they don’t think that our people took that. Course, they missed that memo,

Debra  1:02:12

obviously, because you can lead a horse to water, you can’t make it drink. So you know, we will give the tools to help people build a better business. But at the end of the day, like I said at the beginning, you’ve got to have a good business already. This is designed to take your business to the next level, we are not strategic advisors, we’re not going to tell you what your strategy should be, we’re not going to we’re here to actually help you build the right company that’s got a really strong vision has the right people in the right seats. And if somebody shares the core values, but isn’t in the right seat, hopefully we can find them a seat for them, right. But if they don’t show their core values, they shouldn’t probably be there. And that’s okay, because they’ll find somewhere else that both people are happier. And then we’re there to help them, you know, provide tools that, that don’t restrict the business, but just give a little bit of a framework to guide you. That’s what it’s about. That’s why I loved it. It’s so fucking simple.

Gina  1:03:00

It is so simple. Like, how did it get to this level that you’re what you know, and I think, I think for me, it really was something like it was it was I wasn’t the right fit for them, they needed someone with less experience, who didn’t have as much confidence as I did think I am because I didn’t know anything about the business. And it was very like, did have like a cult following. I think it was easier for me to see through the bullshit. And I was not interested in adapting to their way of doing things because I

Debra  1:03:36

had all and that is sad for for a number of reasons. But I think you know that the thing that I would come back to is one of their core values was bold and brave. So if they really didn’t want bold and brave people, they shouldn’t have had that in their

Gina  1:03:48

day got fired. I was like, I thought you want to bold and brave here I am baby. Like Yeah.

Debra  1:03:53

But that said some, sometimes some companies, they don’t want to face the truth, because it’s better that we’re really, really truthful about our core values. You know, I used to have one when I was running the Event Centre, that was about embracing your inner child. And that was really important for me, because I’m a curious person, I want to make sure that we’re always kind of coming from a good place, children don’t know right or wrong all the time. So and it was really, really important for me, and I had to live and breathe that. So you know, if people weren’t doing that, then I had to bring it up with them and, and do it. But there’s no point in pretending that that wasn’t part of who I was. Because that’s part of who I am. And so that was what I needed in my company. And so that’s what I think about core values. They’ve got to be genuine, they’ve got to be authentic, and you have to live and breathe by them, which means everybody lives and breathes by them or God. And as in a healthy team. The leadership team should not feel afraid to call it out at any level because we are a team. And we’re a team where Sure, there was ultimately a little bit of hierarchy. There has to be somebody ultimately hold the boxtops with somebody and that’s usually the integrator To be honest, that’s the person who gets the final say in everything because they hold the business plan but we should be in an environment where we’re happy to have the conversations, you’ll see on all my materials. I’ve always got an elephant in it, I have a fluffy elephant that it’s about, we’ve got to have the elephant in the room discussion, we’ve got to make sure we’re dealing with the sacred cows, we got to make sure we’re actually fighting for the greater good, which means sometimes we have to tell people things they don’t necessarily wants to hear. But it needs to be said, because that’s, that’s what we need to do to make this business work.

Gina  1:05:23

And I you hit the nail on the head, like for me, I think the visionary was not used to being told this is not possible.

Debra  1:05:31

No, totally me wrong. I absolutely agree that we should so look and see what are the other possibilities. So as long as we’ve explored all possibilities, that’s fine. But we have to be realistic. And that’s, you know, if you think about objectives, goals, now today rocks, they’re going to be smart, which part of the the are is realistic, there is not realistic, we’ve got to call it and that’s happens, a lot of companies too, is they set things they go, this is a 90 day block. After 90 days, I’d be realistic, this is absolutely impossible. Let’s break it down something we actually can do. Because part of the system is making sure we’re really good at predicting and delivering on things. So let’s not kid ourselves, I for a long, long time, I share the story regularly, I used to set myself eight rocks a quarter, because I thought I’m super smart. I’m an iOS implementer. I’m a genius, blah, blah, blah, I can do eight rocks. And every time I reviewed them at the end of the quarter, I’ve done three. And it took me two years to actually finally man up and go you know what, I can’t do eight rocks, I can do three, that’s actually what I’m capable of doing. Stop kidding yourself. Be realistic. Now I have three sometimes four rocks, they usually only get three anyway. But you know, and that’s part of it is about learning from your mistakes and going, Hey, this isn’t working. What do we need to do now, but you have to be realistic. We can’t expect people to work long, long hours, it’s unfair. It’s not part of what you’re employed to do. You’re employed for an accountability or responsibility, not for the number of hours you put in. And it’s designed to give you complete freedom to do that. I always laugh and joke I had a sales rep in one of my teams I was managing there was always on the golf course at three o’clock. And the CEO would keep saying to me, I was the integrator in that role. The CEO or the visionary would say to me No, well, Greg’s on the golf course at three o’clock, I don’t care. He nails his sales targets every single quarter. If he’s on the golf course, that’s probably helping with his sales target. Brilliant. If he’s not nailing his sales targets, and I know they’re realistic, and I know that they’re pushing him if he’s not nailing them, they’re not going to have the conversation. But otherwise, why do I care? Outcomes focus, we want these out nor I

Nicola  1:07:25

can read on this. It’s all about outcomes versus like, if you want to spend your Friday afternoon with your family and not at work, go do that. Because as long as you’ve done the stuff you needed to do for this week, we agreed

Debra  1:07:39

that we agreed on Yep, cool. Yeah.

Nicola  1:07:43

And I think there’s still so many people that are in their mindset that they just don’t grasp that concept yet where it’s like no, get we agreed to five things for this week, you’ve done all five things you’ve gone over and above by doing another six things that doesn’t enjoy your Friday don’t want to see you don’t care.

Debra  1:08:06

If EOS is implemented properly, that’s what’s supposed to do, right, we’ve got our rocks, you’ve got your scorecard, you’ve got your measurables. If you achieve those, and you’re living in our values, why? Why do I care how you do that. Because if you’re living by the core values, you’re doing it in the right way, if you’re delivering what we asked you to do, you’re delivering on your accountability, the rest is up to you, you have full accountability, I don’t want to know about it. But I am here for you. If you have an issue, and I can help you solve it. That’s what iOS is about. Yes. Yeah.

Nicola  1:08:38

Okay, so tell us a little bit about how to avoid potentially some of the pitfalls, then we ended up in an organisation.

Debra  1:08:50

That’s interesting, because ordinarily, I would say that, you know, the key to all of this is about having open and honest conversations, and being able to challenge things and working together as a team. And so often, that’s hard if you’re trying to do it on your own, right, because you’re trying to do it on your own. It’s hard to be working in the business and facilitate those discussions. So my first thing would be like, get an implementer. But you had an implementer. So I don’t know why that didn’t actually work. But normally, that person’s role is to actually be able, I call it poking the bear and you know, bringing up the elephants in the room, because I think that’s our role as an implementer is to enter the danger. Hey, hold on a second. I can see you’re not really happy there Gina what’s actually going on for you. And so really encouraging that stuff to come out because as a facilitator, I do some cool stuff when I when I set up the room, because I do in person, I’ll put out name tags, so I watch people as they come into the room to see where there’s any challenges in that in that in that team. And that is before I even start working with them so I can kind of go okay, I can see immediately that person’s got an issue there because you can tell by their body language. So a good facilitator is always looking for all of those cues, and they love it but our role is really very much a facilitator role to to have those difficult Converse Asians. So Nikola, I’ve seen the face you just pulled right now you know what’s going on for you tell me what’s going on, and then making it a comfortable space that you can actually get comfortable with being uncomfortable, I would often challenge you know, the vision of the integrator, then they don’t know everything. They’re not there to make the final decisions. Ultimately, the integrator is, but we have to have a discussion. And we have to get all of us on the table, and we’re all trying to make the best decision. So you know, so getting an outside person I think is the first thing is actually helps you to have those more difficult conversations. I think also using the tools properly. I mean, quite honestly, doing your version of it, it ain’t gonna work. And I say it to my clients as well. It’s like, Come on, guys. We know that it works. I mean, I’ve done it myself with 26 companies, 170,000 companies around the world use it, and most of them get

Nicola  1:10:48

70,000 company. Yes.

Debra  1:10:51

Yeah. hard for us to imagine that a lot of New Zealand, right. But I mean, yeah, this is globally, there’s 170,000 People that are companies that actually use I should say. So it does work, but you have to do EOS pure, and we talk about and that means actually using the tools and the way that they’re intended, not making your own version of them, not using them as a weapon, not us. It’s like you’re designed, they’re designed to get the great the best out of everybody. That’s what iOS is about? Are you working in your unique ability, the things you love and are great at, that’s what iOS is designed to do. And if you’re not, then we’ve got an issue, let’s make sure you are and that might mean finding another role. Or it might mean finding another company, either or so you know, use the tools as tools as their intended use them purely. And I think, just have those open and honest conversations, you know, don’t feel afraid. And if somebody starts to use it against you just I would ask as an employee, and I’ve done this myself, is this the right place for me? Am I happy here? Can I really do what I want you to do here? No, then I have to go. And I’ve quit jobs in the past where I wasn’t a right fit. Because I just thought it’s not it’s not worth it, life is too fucking short to be to be frank is too short to be stuck with some people you don’t like in a job that you don’t like, doing stuff that you’re not being paid for properly. Because if you’re working long hours, you might be being paid a good hourly rate, but you’re not really because you’re working long hours. So you know, you got to be compensated appropriate for what you’re doing. So sometimes, as an employee, just ask the question, Can I really change this, these guys are stuck in their ways, too. I want to be part of that, that they want to fight this battle anymore. I’m out of here. So it comes down to do they really want to do it because some people aren’t prepared to have the difficult conversation. Some people aren’t prepared to enter the day. Some people are prepared to live by their values. And so like, I think that’s all the tools. But yeah,

Gina  1:12:36

they would pick and choose, you know. And ultimately, the visionary had the final say wasn’t even the integrator, say that, that that is funny, it would be the bearer of the shitty news because the visionary was not bold or brave enough to do it herself. So that’s like, I had a major issue with that. And, and like, it was just, it was just such a. And also, I remember once divisionary saying, I don’t do things based on principle.

Debra  1:13:10

Okay, so red flags all over. Right? So that’s the thing as as an imposed like,

Gina  1:13:14

Oh, okay. And she’s like, my husband hates that about me. And I was like, Okay, well, we got to have like, some kind of baseline somewhere.

Nicola  1:13:22

I’m now curious. Again, I’m circling all the way back. I’m circling right up to the front end of this because I know we’ve we’ve, we specifically got you in to chat about yo x. Right. And I know that the very curious conversation I know, not just for us, but I’m sure all of the listeners are going. But deeper. Yeah, there was a time that you joined an organisation. And there was such a blaring glazing scary red flags that you were like, Whoa.

Debra  1:13:52

So I can’t say that I’ve ever wondered, there was one I joined an account, I worked for council for 18 months, there was glaring red flags in the beginning, but I ignored them to my peril, and eventually end up resigning because it just wasn’t it didn’t fit with me. I’m not a government organisation kind of girl, I realised that. But there was another one where I was actually, I was general manager of quite a large company. And there was I actually resigned on a principle because though we had an issue with a particular employee who wasn’t sharing our core values, who was actually doing some illegal shit, and we got all the way down, because in New Zealand, you can’t just find people that you know, Nicola will go to the performance reviews went through all the different steps of performance review, and it got right down to the last like, this is your final you are out. And the CEO said to me, we can’t do it. I said to what he said we can’t do it, the board have said we’re not going to get rid of this person. And so I said to him, Well, on that basis, I can’t stay. Because you have basically you’re you’re allowing this person to break the rules and they’re setting the example for everybody else in the organisation, which means if we do not get rid of this person, it is going to it’s going to backfire on us and I never found out why they didn’t want to get rid of him. But I knew for me that wasn’t that wasn’t

Gina  1:14:58

like who cares at that point. Right if Yeah, Oh, someone’s doing something illegal and they’re still going to employ them. Yeah. Like, why do you want to be a part of that says Exactly, yeah.

Debra  1:15:08

So that so I resigned and said, look on that basis, I can’t stay this is not fit with my core values. And it also means that as a general manager, I cannot manage anybody to accountability. Because once we let one person do it,

Gina  1:15:20

why would anyone sounds like it was like an openly known thing that this person was doing whatever it was, that was illegal, right? Yeah. So it would have been different if it was just like it was uncovered by like, a couple of high ups and they dealt with it. Right. But like, if everyone knew you, right, how could you manage anyone to get accountability because it’d be like Frank over there as embezzling and he’s still getting paid. You know exactly what it was, like, I left early four times this week, like, okay.

Debra  1:15:55

So the reason I got involved with EOS is because I’m really passionate about people leaving leaving their best lives. That is absolutely my fundamental reason for being is to make sure privilege really good lives. And so that comes down to not only the owner of the business, but people in the business. So if your life is too short, if you’re not enjoying what you’re doing, make a change. Seriously, my brother passed away at 44 years old, he dropped dead in a heartbeat. That could happen to any of us. Why are we doing stuff that does not feed our souls? Go and do something that feeds your soul?

Gina  1:16:25

Yeah, yeah. and have some fun principles. Sorry, what’s that Nicola?

Nicola  1:16:30

Because I need money.

Debra  1:16:33

Yeah, but you know what, there’ll be plenty of other businesses out there that will pay you. And sometimes you get paid a whole lot more. When you’re doing the stuff that you love with people you love. People recognise that and they will, you know, continue to promote you, they will continue to pay you well. So there’s always every job I’ve left, and I’ve actually resigned from a few jobs or based on principles based on not enjoying it. I’ve never had an issue, finding something else. I mean that the thing is, you’ve got to know yourself, and you’ve got to be true to yourself. So the better you can get to know yourself and know what’s important to you, then you live by that there’ll be other people out there who absolutely are like you, and who will want to work with you and who love you. And that’s what you want.

Gina  1:17:10

I like that. Okay, so Deborah, our time is up. So can you tell us where we can find you where people can listen to you if you have your own podcast, you know, thank Jen give us all the goods.

Debra  1:17:24

Cool. Pretty simple. My name is Deborah Chantry. Taylor is the most unusual name out there. There was no other Deborah Chantry Taylor in the world. So you can Google me and you’ll find me. But if you go Deborah dot CouchDB, Ira dot coach, you’ll find all the stuff that I’m involved in. I do actually have my own podcast where I talk about better business better life. And that is where you will hear some of the success stories about people who genuinely are doing that. But I also get people to share their shit stuff as well, like life is not. It’s not one big merry go round, and everything’s wonderful. And a bed of roses. We all go through stuff. So we share some of the things they go through. And like I said, I’m passionate about helping entrepreneurs lead better lives, established businesses. You feel like you’re stuck. Give us a yell. Okay,

Nicola  1:18:04

that’s it. We loved having you on and it’s been great chat.

Debra  1:18:07

Yeah, no, thank you. I’m sorry that your iOS experience wasn’t great. I really genuinely am. Because I it shouldn’t be.

Gina  1:18:12

But I’m sure that we’re not the only ones who’ve had a shitty experience, unfortunately, with the system, because as you said, everyone’s human. So we just had a pack of humans who didn’t get it. Yeah, we’re trying to deliver it, you know?

Debra  1:18:28

Yep, that’s absolutely right. And so just Yeah. Don’t judge one experience, I suppose. Yeah. There is definitely good experiences out there. And every human is different. Yeah. That’s true. Yeah. So thank you for having me on. And they were allowing me to give me my

Nicola  1:18:46

theory as you thought we were going to be.

Debra  1:18:50

I knew that you had issues with with what had gone on. So that’s fine. I wanted a chance to sort of help you see that it shouldn’t be like that. And there is definitely a better way. So hopefully, I’ve done a little bit of that. You guys got you have fun to talk to you. So thank you.

Gina  1:19:03

Awesome. Well, have a good rest of your day.

Nicola  1:19:06

Have an amazing Friday, and I haven’t Thank you. Yeah, well,

Debra  1:19:09

I’ve got another person where he didn’t love to interview now. But I’m looking forward to my weekend. Yeah.

Gina  1:19:15

All right. I hope this email finds you well. Yeah. Follow up.

Debra  1:19:23

Your New York native self, please.

Gina  1:19:26

It wouldn’t even have a high it would be like, see my answers below.

Debra  1:19:31

Perfect. The people like me would appreciate that. So go find your tribe. Yeah.

Nicola  1:19:36

Oh, my goodness. Hi. Thank you for joining us today. If you would like to share your story, we would love to hear from you.

Gina  1:19:48

Also, leaving a review helps us create more content because it shows us there’s an interest in this topic.

Nicola  1:19:54

For those of our listeners who do beta with reading. We have close caption available on YouTube. See you

Gina  1:19:59

next week. Same time same place

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